I do think, though, that many of the people who were putting Confederate Battle Flag stickers on their cars or whatnot when I was a kid were thinking of it as a symbol of the South, rather than a symbol of the Confederacy. It's not unusual to be proud of where we live and the ways people are in that area. I'm extremely proud to be a Texan. If I were from the South, I might well feel that way about the South. To me it was sort of saying "Yeah, we're all Americans, but we've got something special. We're from the South." and the flag was a symbol of what they felt made them special. And say what you will about what it represents, it's a good-looking flag. Unfortunately, they picked a symbol that has a whole mess of problems because of its history, from the fact that it was a battle flag of the Confederacy, an institution that, at the very least, is perceived to be equated with the defense of slavery to the fact that it had been resurrected in the fight against expansion of civil rights for minorities in the fifties and sixties. And has since been used extensively by groups such as the KKK. So the flag is a very loaded symbol. And I don't think people can ever get around that, so we're always going to have this as an issue. It's not that people don't want Southerners to be proud that they're Southerners and of all the heritage, etc. But that symbol just has so much bad history and its meaning has so largely come to be associated with both slavery and the fight against civil rights that the fight to get rid of it will never end.
see i dont get how us southerners can be proud of our heritage without being demonized for loving slavery. after this whole event with sae and oklahoma, a bunch of people been talking about the frat hanging the dixie flag from their house. in my neighborhood and on a lot of people's cars there's a dixie flag and there's always someone who brings it up. some of them are racist but the rest are just your normal conservatives and proud southerners.
I've never understood why a flag of a loser is picked as something needed to show pride. Of course, I don't get flag-worship in general.
Wow a thread by Macbeth from 2003. I think the thread police would not have been angry with you if you decided to start a new thread about this subject.
The Confederate Flag doesn't bother me one bit. It's an important part of American history. Personally, I wouldn't fly it in front of my house or on my car but if others choose to... So be it. TLDR: Reminds me of a family vacation from my teens. We'd go to Florida every summer and always spend a day or two on the beach in Pensacola. One year we went to an old fort on the beach there and took a tour. Before we left we stopped at the gift shop and my little brother, who was about one or two at the time, picked up a little flag off a shelf and refused to put it down. I remember trying to get him to get a toy gun instead, but he really wanted that damn flag. When we went to check out the cashier gave my dad this confused look and asked: "You do know what type of flag that is, right?" Which made some sense because, well... We're black. My dad just smiled and said: "This is an historic place isn't it? And this flag is part of our history. He wants the flag, so he can have it." Funny how little memories like that from your youth stick with you.
I agree, so long as the flag isn't used to incite violence, I don't have an issue with people flying it. I would never fly it, but I don't need to have laws or regulations that forbid others from flying it. I, like many, have issue recognizing the flag that represents such a tumultuous period in American history. However, it is still American history, and an important period at that. Having a swastika emblem on your car, or in your home, is not the same as painting it on a synagogue. I would only find the swastika argument comparative if someone was flying the flag to purposefully incite violence or intimidation, eg flying it on a predominantly black church, or the NAACP.
Tariffs were long settled before South Carolina decided to secede. If you want to learn what the true reasons for the Southern states seceding just look at their declarations before they seceded and also more importantly read the transcripts of the Lincoln-Douglas debates. Presidential debates are a great indicator on what is considered important amongst voters. For sure you would assume that these debates would touch on several issues such as railway expansion, tariffs(something many of today's Confederate touting apologists believe to be one of the most important reasons why the south seceded) etc. But no, the ENTIRE debate centered around slavery and most importantly expansion of slavery into the territories. Anyone claiming that the south seceded because of states rights or "tariffs" are fooling themselves. They are half right. The south did secede because of states's rights... states' rights to continue on with slavery. The final straw for South Carolina was Lincoln's victory because they knew that he was adamantly against the expansion of slavery into the territories which was a vital issue amongst slave holding sates. The southern states knew that these territories would eventually become states and if they were to be considered free states, they would loose a portion of representation in congress and loose a proportion of electoral votes. Doesn't anyone find it a little too coincidental that anytime these southern states blabber about states rights it's in order to perpetuate a morally reprehensible tradition? States rights were used in propagating segregation and states' rights are being used again today to attempt to ban gay marriage.
Well said. As a black man... ...wait a minute, sorry...forgot where I was posting for a minute.... ...As a brainwashed ignorant thoughtless liberal leech of a nanny-state indoctrinated Negro... ...this sentiment, in regards to our nation's history and destiny, is where I have often found personal gravitas, despite the sorrier episodes of American history. I shouldn't on general principle, I'm often told, be inclined to recognize anything remotely human about the development of this nation by its "...founding fathers..." a colloquialism that both admonishes and absolves the men who framed the Constitution in a sanctimonious irreverence that, whether intentionally insidious or not, serves as a needlessly obstinate position by few to remove those men from the times and circumstances they lived in. I've wondered, often, what might have been had that "deal" not been struck...to pass on the decision to remove chattel slavery from institutionalized legitimacy to a day and time better suited to determine it... ...the Colonies might have almost certainly not been able to win the Revolutionary war....thereby not creating "United" States as we know them or have known them... ...and down the rabbit hole we go... Process...more so than inception or culmination...has always been what has fascinated me about a great many things in this life. I've never been as interested in where we've "been" or where we're "going", as I've been interested in how we get there. Or how we got there. I'm not as naïve as I often sound here. Nor am I as jaded as some people might be inclined to think, either. I'm not afforded the luxury or the arrogance. I've never thought of myself as less than a human being. Less than a man, actually. I've never had the "privilege" to weigh my determination of that state against another "person's". But as much as we are wont to soliloquies of "freedom" and "justice" by those men...we are still living with that decision to wait another day to decide what this country was willing to stand for...and at the time was standing for. Whatever else slavery in this country was...and eventually metastasized into because of its legislated legitimacy and subsequent entrenchment in society...it was still just the aesthetic to the debate about what still persists in this country―the idea of what power is and who in fact wields it. Sports website…I forget that sometimes… …as fascinating as this all is…it reminds me of a story about Heavyweight Boxing Champion Joe Lewis, campaigning for the Army in 1942…about how he famously uttered "We'll win, because we're on God's side…" during recruitment functions… ...the story goes that Louis got what the promoter who wrote the slogan said wrong ― what he was supposed to say was …”God is on our side”… …I’m not up on my “Freudian” slips (liberal public educations do that to a person)… … but ultimately, for me…the idea is not to abandon the process of betterment because the process might be painful. Most of us can’t or won’t see anything beyond what’s in front of us anyway. Somebody’s got to take the initiative to steer humankind toward a better destiny than it might otherwise be led towards, given our investment in tropes like economics and national identity. Might does not ever make right. It makes winning a fight (and subsequently, the attending narrative) right…but that’s because of the frame of reference that people generally work from. I don’t know if those Virginia and Massachusetts farmers 200 years ago cared a whit for anything other than their wallets…and at the end of the day, their necks, because Great Britain would have hung every one of them for treason had they lost. I doubt very many of them cared overmuch about anybody Negro―slave or free―at any rate. Somebody had to care, though. Providence, I contend, is difficult to unseat. Particularly if you’re trying to hide behind its skirt…
To me . .. there is no difference between this ,. .. .Confederateflag . . .and the ISIS Flag or a Swastika Rocket River
Main reason I don't like the Confederate flag: It represents a nation that attempted to break away from the United State, primarily because its residents feared they would no longer be able to exploit the lives of my African ancestors for their own profit. Reason why I find it ironic that it is still flown in public places: This flag also represents a group of domestic terrorist that started the conflict by attacking a federal military base and killing the responding military forces. In an era where terrorism is a hot button issue, I don't understand why domestic terrorists and slaveholders from the 1860s are held up as freedom fighters.
Lincoln and the Union were no great emancipators themselves. The decision to declare the Civil War as a war to end American slavery was a decision made halfway through out of fear that the Confederacy would achieve legitimacy in the eyes of British and French governments. Lincoln used the plight of African slaves as a card to ensure that the Confederacy would receive little to no European support. He advocated the emigration of Africans to the Caribbean and back to the African continent ( See Americo-Liberians). Lincoln is on record as saying that he didn't see how black and white people could ever live together. The Union's decision to abolish slavery came out of necessity.....not necessarily morality. Brilliant military strategy.....really not anything more (as the events in the decades after showed.)
I'm gonna see if I can find myself from 12 years ago to respond to this post..since the post you responded to is 12 years old I'd love to go back and do the last 12 years over again... Actually, I'm gonna bookmark this page and come back in 12 years to see how I feel about this topic then. I will say I tend to be super prejudiced against people who fly the Confederate flag today. Fairly or unfairly, I judge them pretty harshly.
I wouldn't display the Confederate flag anymore than I would display the pants I ***** in when I was drunk. They're both embarrassing reminders of bad choices.
