The Confederate Flag

Seriously, Fatty, if you are going to dare people to debate you, it would be better not to have such glaring errors.

 

Great thread!

Just would like to make a few observations:

1) I thought the Stars and Bars on top of the Robert E. Lee in the Dukes of Hazzard was dead cool. Gosh I loved that show. I believe also that it can be a pop symbol, a representation of hip, proud, irreverent, indefatigable, and individualistic rebel spirit. Call it hillbilly or hick or what you will, but it don't change for a second the people who sport it aren't guilty of anything more than good ol' Southern pride until proven otherwise. When I see people waving the Stars and Bars at country music festivals, somehow I really don't think re-enslaving blacks is what's on their minds.

Because the Stars and Bars is a symbol of the South, it is by association also a symbol of the guilt of slavery which hangs like a curse around the neck of Southerners. But come on! Slaves were freed over 130 years ago, and a good two generations have passed since the Civil Rights Movement. How long do we plan to carry this grudge?

I'll grant that many Southerners still are ignorantly prejudiced against blacks, but condemning the symbol of their Southern identity and insulting their pride doesn't do squat to clear that prejudice. Furthermore, it insults the dignity of countless other Southerners who share no such misconceptions. Remember that the greatest Southern hero who served under that flag, Robert E. Lee, was himself against slavery.

I grew up in California, and the fact that I found the Stars and Bars romantic did not prevent me from respecting the blacks around me, from worshipping black writers, athletes and musicians, nor did it prevent M. L. King from becoming one of my greatest heroes. (I've got several of his speeches on my computer right now!). Though I've still got issues about dating black women, but that's a whole other thread...

2) I sympathise with the people who find the flag offensive. However, I also believe that:
a) They need to understand that the true cause of their ancesters' suffering is the prejudice, the intolerance, the dehumanising institution of slavery, rather than a pattern on a piece of cloth. The time we spend on teaching our children to despise the Confederate flag, could be better spent teaching them about what truly matters.
b) They need to stop seeing ghosts in every closet. Most people who sport this flag aren't advocating slavery or even resegregation.

3) I hold the same view with regards to the swastika. The Nazis did many things right, and even the things they did wrong, weren't all that shocking or surprising by their contemporary standards. Too much time today is spent demonising Hitler and everything about Nazi Germany, when time ought to be spent instead explaining where, why, and how they went wrong and how to prevent their vile deeds from being repeated elsewhere.

During junior high, I had to destroy my art class final project. Why? Because the hundreds of Buddhist swastika symbols I had painted on it as a spiritual statement were perceived to be offensive to the Jewish teacher. Goodness gracious, they didn't even look the same. What purpose did the destruction serve? What message did the teacher send?

4) The backlash against the Dean and the Stars and Bars seems to me an irrational, vengeful attempt, using political correctness, to place a blanket condemnation on everything associated with the Confederacy, if not an attempt to wipe the Confederacy altogether from our collective memories.

Now certainly, slavery is wrong. No one will contest that today on this bbs. But how does erasing our memories help us learn anything useful from our past? Southern culture, whether we'd like to admit it or not, represents one of the central facets of Americana (vs. say New England or New York or Hollywood). The fact that Classical Greece and Rome was based on slavery doesn't mean that we cannot honour their memory and commemorate the heritage from which Western civilisation descended.

5) For white southerners themselves (which I guess would include many Texans), the Confederate flag is part and parcel of their identity. Call it nationalism, regionalism, or even parochialism, it is still their god-given right to be proud of where they're from. And while the bearers of the flag today may have had ancesters who stood and fought for slavery, why must they bear their forefather's guilt today? People learn. People change. Especially after 150 years and six generations. And even if some of them still hold anachronistic views, they are still entitled constitutionally to their own opinions, aren't they? All Dean said was that Southerners need to be represented too in our democracy. And for that he's being crucified.

 

While I agree with you on not equating the Stars and Bars with slavery, i hope you extend the same logic/courtesy to the Nazi swastika.

The Civil War itself was not fought over slavery in name. The Union still included several slave states as I recall. And the Emancipation was not promulgated until very late in the war. However, the real cause of the war, SECESSION, had EVERYTHING to do with slavery. The South seceded because it perceived an attack on its way of life, which though included many other fine things, was predicated on slavery. And as the political turmoil which preceded the secession would indicate, slavery was far and away the leading political issue of the day. And while soldiers didn't exactly go into the field crying "Long Live Slavery", they did fight to preserve their way of life, for which slavery was indispensable.

On the other hand, the Allies during WW2 NEVER mentioned genocide or the persecution of jews as a reason for joining the war. China, Russia and America joined only because they were invaded. UK and France joined only because they had an alliance with Poland. The extent of the Holocaust was only discovered at the end of the war, and made for a convenient excuse to condemn the Nazis, who had already lost the war.

And while the Nazis supported the persecution of Jews from the very beginning, they merely legalised and institutionalised what was universal practice throughout Europe. The Holocaust itself was not initiated until midway through WW2, at the 1942 Wannsee Conference, whereas Hitler and the Nazis had been in power since 1932.

In other words, while the Confederate flag represented slavery (among other things) since its inception, the Nazi flag stood for the Holocaust only in the last three years it flew over Berlin.

Not that it matters of course. What's really important is that we note the dehumanisation, intolerance, imperialism, and other brutal social/political conditions which permitted slavery and the Holocaust in the first place and try to prevent it. The flags themselves are merely historical relics, symbols of a bygone era, eliciting romantic notions in some, bad blood in others, kinda like the way the Rockets' championship banners hang from the Toyota Center, and how JVG and Ewing get to look at them every time they show up to work...

 

Interestingly enough, the lagest and most reveared leader in Texas history, Sam Houston, was opposed to Texas Joining the Confederate States. He did not believe in the disolution of the union and made the prediciton that the war would destroy Texas and her youth that would fight in the battle. He spoke out against suceeding and was ingnored and defamed.

 

2) I sympathise with the people who find the flag offensive. However, I also believe that:
a) They need to understand that the true cause of their ancesters' suffering is the prejudice, the intolerance, the dehumanising institution of slavery, rather than a pattern on a piece of cloth. The time we spend on teaching our children to despise the Confederate flag, could be better spent teaching them about what truly matters.
b) They need to stop seeing ghosts in every closet. Most people who sport this flag aren't advocating slavery or even resegregation.

You forgot top mention that those who find the confederate flag offensive must first care about your opinion before proceeding to following your dictums a) and b).

 

This thread has taken a scary ass turn I'd say however...

Obviously people aren't learning or changing since they continue to promote a symbol from the past which has such an incredibly vile reputation among so many Americans. What I find you and others doing here is trying to quiet criticism of the flag by calling it simply a piece of cloth however you simultaneously staunchly defend it's "meanings" and significance as a symbol of southern pride. You can't have it both ways. It's either just a piece of cloth, insignificant to all or an incredibly divisive symbol flown with the full knowledge that it insults the sensibilities of so many no matter what "meaning" you're attempting to attach to it. I've said it a few times now, this flag was created for the Confederacy and had zero existence prior to that creation. It was created as a battle flag, it's original intent was to distinguish troops on a battle field. The soft peddling of the flag's meaning as some romantic huggy bear southern pride thing is simply ignoring the facts.

BTW, waving symbols of 100 year old dead nations is carrying a grudge. Recognizing what symbol represents certainly isn't.

 

I believe that the Nazi flag and Confederate flag are somewhat comparable. The Nazi flag represents a horrible scar from Germany's past. The Confederate flag represents a horrible scar from the United States' past. The Confederate flag was a representation of independence from the Union, you're right but why did the Confederacy decide to secede? It was because Lincoln was coming into office and he was against slavery and Southern states saw this as a threat against their agricultural based lifestyle, even though Lincoln said he would not end the practice. So you see the flag does represent the practice of slavery in a way if you delve through the history. These bumber stickers you talk of, well I have seen many. "Them damn Yankees!" could be taken several different ways. It could mean being pround of being Southern, it could mean damn the Yankees because they won the war, it could mean damn the New York Yankees, etc. I have also seen bumber sticker that state: "I Have a Dream" mocking Dr. King's famous speech and then a nice little picture to the side of the White House with a Confederate flag flying above it but I guess it is still some stating they're proud. The Confederate flag not being an image of slavery is certainly not true. That may be when it gained national scrutiny for what it represents but it has been a symbol of slavery and hatred since the KKK started using shortly after the Civil War when they terrozied blacks and their supporters.

You're partially correct about the Civil War not being about slavery. The war started for the preservation of the Union and not because of slavery but after the Emanicipation Proclamation by Lincoln the war had much to do about slavery because he announced that if the North were to win then slavery would end.

Shouldn't this say give all your land back to the American Indians?

 

i agree with you that some people do get offended by the flag.

However, i disagree with you that a symbol of the south HAS to be equated to slavery.

i'm not a southerner, nor white, but i can still understand and appreciate the Stars and Bars and Southern spirit without any of the "vile" connotations about slavery and racial inequities you seem to be unable to shake off.

slavery is slavery. the confederacy is the confederacy. a flag is a flag. and the south is a very big place with a whole lot of people. there's no need to insist on saying one thing has to be another... you're perceiving insults where none may have been intended, and then getting all offended and worked up over it. why?

While i do not support the root cause behind the confederate secession (slavery), i do support the confederate states' right to rebel against the union over social/cultural/political differences and their right to defend their own homelands and identity.

The two doesn't not have to be the same. And I frankly believe the Confederate flag more closely represents the latter than the former. I recommend reading some of Robert E. Lee's biographies and how he made his choice between the Union and the Confederacy. I think it would shed light on this debate.

Cheers!

 

Exactly, what is it pride in? a dead nation. A group of states who almost ruined the United States of America. Question, would this country be as great if the Confederacy had won? To be waving the flag as symbol of pride can be taken as you don't love the U.S. You're traitors. You wish your ancestors had won so the south wouldn't be its own country. You don't won't to be an American.

Its a dead nation, yes it is a part of our history that should be recognized, not revered.

 

i think the same argument can be made for democrats in general. they lost the 2000 election. but many of the things they still stand for still resonate with the people, and so people keep supporting them today. another example is how italy fought a war against america and lost too. yet many italians still proudly sport the italian flag today (just go to any italian family restaurant).

it's one thing to find history romantic, to love the place you're from, to insist on one's own uniqueness and identity, and something totally different to love America. these things don't have to be mutually exclusive.

 

oops. i meant italian-americans...

 

But the thing you are talking about was an enemy of America, and formed specifically to be an enemy.

Italy, although, once an enemy in WWII, a) still exists, and b) wasn't formed out of contempt for this country.

 

for that reason, shouldn't you be even more tolerant of their beliefs? these aren't a a foreign people from a foreign land. these are our fellow Americans who fought with us during the Revolution, who died fighting next to us during the War of 1812, the Mexican-American Wars, in settling the West, in drafting the Constitution, who filled the halls of our democracy, defining the very essense of being American. Yet over one disagreement, we deny them even their right to defend their own homes, calling them "traitors" in the name of "America"?

you may not feel this way, but the south was america too. and the spirit of america at that time was not so much the supremacy of the Union/Federal govt, as it was a democratic system in which each (white) man may pursue his own happiness. nowhere in the constitution will you find stipulated the supremacy of the Union over states' rights and particularly slavery, whereas it DOES state that where it is not explicitly listed otherwise, all powers shall be with the states. so in a sense, the south was merely fighting for its consitutional right AS AMERICANS to secede against a tyrannical govt, hijacked by abolitionists.

it takes two parties to compromise. both the republicans that led the north, and the confederates who led the south were at fault for letting the situation descend into war. nobody betrayed anyone else. the two parts of the country simply disagreed. call it contempt if you will, but that would be a sin committed equally by both sides.

 

yes it was America, and it wanted to uphold an istitution that it was a stain on this country, this countries greatest black eye.

It was an embarrassment, the supposedly progressive democratic nation being one of the last industrialized nations to abolish that institution. It is something that should not be celebrated. Period.

The nation is better off for it, better off for the North winning and better off for the abolishment of the institution.

So if everyone admits it had to go away, and this nation is better off, why should it be celebrated.

Hitler led his country from the shambles of WWI, do we celebrate him?

 

you might want to educate yourself before before going off on someone..

http://www.nps.gov/liho/slavery/al01.htm

 

Hmm...

what point are you trying to make here?

He was against slavery's expansion in the west; meaning he didn't want the political strength of the south to distrupt the unfair "balance" that was in Washington.

If you read between the lines, he wasn't against slavery at all. How could he be against something and yet not be pro-elminating that something.

 

"I think Slavery is wrong, morally, and politically. I desire that it should be no further spread in these United States, and I should not object if it should gradually terminate in the whole Union.
" - Lincoln September 17, 1859

where exactly should I be looking between the lines again?

 

This is as unbiased and as pro Lincoln of a link regarding this particular case I could find.

http://www.eiu.edu/~localite/coles/cclhp/crime/ashmore_v._matson.htm

 

You mean red-neck gays?