Land expeditions hardly qualify as 'discoveries'...I will have to give credit to those who sailed around the world just to get there.
that's what i was gonna say. even though they didn't get there first, you gotta get extra credit for sailing out into the unknown and finding something as opposed to just walking over there. maybe it's like those old nbc slogans for repeats, "if you haven't seen it, it's new to you."
I'm not sure about this, but some say the Indians are Asian, or even Chinese descendants who's ancestors walked over from Asia to Alaska when the straits were frozen up thousands of years ago. So, if it's true the Asians still discovered America. Heheh.
I believe that's correct and that Tenochtitlan had a greater population and was far cleaner than almost all of the European cities of the time and had an incredibly sophisticated canal system. As for precious metal alloying that was something that had been known in Europe since the ancient days. Archimedes "Eureka" moment had to do with figuring a way based to determine if a gold crowned had been alloyed with other metals. I hadn't heard of that before but I doubt that was much of a factor Cortez's victory compared to metal weapons, guns, horses and small pox.
This has been proven definitavely now by looking at the genes of Native Americans and Asians. I remember hearing that the closest relatives to modern Native Americans are Mongolians and the Ainu of Japan.
This issue isn't new and there's been a lot of talk about Zheng He having sailed to the Americas for decades. There are a couple of things that I find problematic about it though. For one Zheng He didn't sail on voyages of discovery into the unknown but followed known trade routes to expand Chinese trade, establish colonies, and project Chinese power. As such he established Chinese colonies throughout SE Asia and also kept very good records of his voyages. Imperial China being very bureaucratic would have kept much better records if Zheng He had discovered North and South America and there would be colonies there. No one has found evidence of Chinese colonies dating to the time from the time. OTOH everywhere Zheng He went there is corresponding evidence of colonies or of his visit from local history. Even though Zheng He might not have made it to US I believe other Chinese did prior to the 17th C. I've heard of Ming anchors and even T'Ang pottery found off of the costs of California and it seems likely that Chinese trade ships or fisherman might've been blown off course by Typhoons and got caught by trade windes or El Ninos and carried all the way to the coasts of the Americas but ended up stuck there.
I remember this very clearly. The first thing that saved them was the Quetzalcoátl legend similarities. But there was roughly 100 Spaniards and even a body count total of 100 to 1 in favor of the Spanish would have been a losing afair. [rquoter] Scholarly views of Mesoamerican attitudes toward war occupy a spectrum which, at one extreme, integrates martial enterprise deeply into the indigenous metaphysical scheme and, at the other, attributes pragmatic motives to war and its attendant technology. The former view is unapologetically championed by Inga Clendinnen. Relying heavily on indigenous accounts, Clendinnen traces connections between the pervasive militarization of Aztec society and the performance of public ritual, practiced on the bodies of captured warriors. As with all observers of Aztec society, Clendinnen has been struck by the large role accorded to capture in Aztec warfare, as opposed to battlefield killing. She finds significance in the role of captives in rituals. In her examination of rituals such as the "Feast of the Flaying of Men," she shows clear associations between militarism and the agricultural cycle, replete with offerings to the sun god of blood and beating human hearts; with stout warriors donning the flayed skin of their sacrificed captives to represent the husks on ears of maize. The Aztec ritual calendar, she claims "was geared to the most precisely observed and minutely differentiated stages of vegetable growth." These stages were observed from that unique Aztec achievement: chinampas agriculture. [/rquoter] There was more than one occasion that a significant portion of Cortez's force on the order of 10-20% was captured, and escaped to rejoin the main Spaniard force. source
I'm presuming though many of these escapes were abbetted by Spanish rescue missions and the superior Spanish weapons would've greatly aided in that as opposed to other Aztec prisoners who didn't have the benefit. Also if I remember correctly Cortez's first attempt to conquer Mexico failed and he was driven back but succeeded later after the Aztecs had been greatly weakened by a small pox epidemic.
For those of you well versed with Journey to the West, there has been speculation that the tome is actually a description of an actual journey to the Americas. I'm too lazy to google it right now, but I've heard the speculation before.
I did some checking and I seem to have gotten it backward. The Aztec used Platinum, which the Spaniards refered to as white gold (which is an alloy of gold and either silver or nickel) and were able to work it which the Spaniards were not able to do because it's high melting point which is 800° or so hotter than gold and silver. Regarding the small pox epidemic, it is common practice to speak of it in terms that blame Cortez for it's existance. IMHO, this is a bit disingenuous. Nobody knew of or understood epidemology at the time. Nobody speaks of the Mongols in the same tones for exporting the Black Death from China to the Middle East and Europe. As for the map, it is important to understand that it's authenticity does not prove or disprove the journy of Zheng He. By comparison, setting asside all religious aspects, there is a general concensus is that there was an actual person named Jesus. The James Ossuary which caused all sorts of excitement as being proof of Jesus' existance has turned out to be the work of a master forger, but that has no bering whatsoever on the general consensus of the existance of the man named Jesus.
In that regard, Columbus, Zheng He, Leif all discovered the Americas. We can just give them all credit. This who-discovered-first bs, is dumb. Historically, Columbus' discovery of the Americas made a huge impact on the nations of Europe, the Americas and the whole world. The discovery of the Americas by ancient American Indians made a big impact on those people who populated the continents and a pretty significant one on modern Americas and to a lesser extent the world. The discoveries by Zheng He (if true), and Leif Ericsson are mere historical footnotes. Neither China nor the Vikings did a whole lot with the discovery and touched only a few (thousand) lives with the knowledge. Whoever did it first is historically not very important; what people did with the information is very important.
Yes the Chinese and the Vikings left the Native Americans to their own lives and went back to their respective countries. The Europeans came, plundered, destroyed, blah blah blah We shouyld all be thankful that the Europeans aren't as respectful of other's cultures as the Vikings and the Chinese.
I've read Journey to the West a few times and I've never heard of speculation that it was a trip to the Americas. I find that very doubtful though because for one it is a journey to the West from China which would mean heading towards Central Asia and Europe. The Americas are closer to the East and the most direct route would be going east . Also the journey described is a land journey and to go from China to the Americas would require a signifigant sea journey or a long crossing across Siberia, the Bering Strait and down Alaska and other than an account of crossing a frozen river there's nothing indicating an extensive trip in a cold climate. Finally there is much historical evidence that the monk Fa-Hsien (Tripitaka) actually existed and did take a journey to the West of CHina (India) and brought back Buddhists manuscripts to China. It would be very unlikely for him to journey to the Americas to bring back Buddhists manuscripts.
Its not saying that Cortez deliberately used small pox to defeat the Aztecs and considering that there isn't evidence of small pox existing in the New World prior to then and there was almost no immunity to it among Native Americans its very likely it was brought over by the Spanish. I've heard quite a bit about the Mongols and other invaders spreading plague. In fact a Mongol strategy to take cities under siege was to catapult plague victims or dogs that had been eating plague corpses into the city to try to spread the plague. I agree the map doesn't disprove that Zheng He found America but I am skeptical of the idea that he did and I don't find the map convincing based upon the reasons I stated why I don't think Zheng He sailed to the Americas.
From what I remember in the couple of things I read and one show I watched where I heard about this in the first place, they specualted that the group took a trip via boat across a large body of water, rather than going up north through Siberia.
While I can tell you're trying to be sarcastic, I can't figure out what you're trying to say. Do you think I'm bashing the Europeans?
