The Children's Crusade from Central America.

Under the Mexican law, illegal immigration is a felony, punishable by up to two years in prison. Immigrants who are deported and attempt to re-enter can be imprisoned for 10 years. Visa violators can be sentenced to six-year terms. Mexicans who help illegal immigrants are considered criminals.

The law also says Mexico can deport foreigners who are deemed detrimental to “economic or national interests,” violate Mexican law, are not “physically or mentally healthy” or lack the “necessary funds for their sustenance” and for their dependents.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news...als-laws-tougher-than-arizonas/#ixzz36bh4R0ls

 

Laws don't justify themselves but right and wrong certainly does. Being on someone else's property without their permission is wrong. It's wrong in every country in the world. Stealing someone's personal information without their consent to work illegally is wrong and it's wrong in every country in the world. Trespassing on someone's property to sneak into a country is wrong and it's wrong in every country in the world. Notice the trend?

No you're spouting nonsense about how borders don't matter, laws don't matter, right and wrong don't matter unless you're poor and from another country. If you're American then you cede your right to protect your borders because people on the other side have a right to be in your country without your consent. Huh?

I'm actually an American and as such I have an interest in protected borders and who comes into my country illegally no different than any other citizen of any other country. If you can't get past the fact that nobody has a right to sneak into another country because they don't like their immigration laws then you should bow out.

 

Necessity is a common law justification for trespassing that has been recognized for ages. Necessity effectively makes what might in other contexts be wrong, right. I'm not saying that the common law doctrine of necessity applies but I point to it more of an example of the need to stop thinking in absolutes. In our current immigration system, there are tons of laws or policies that allow for people who have entered this country in a manner that is illegal to gain status. For example, Asylum, Humanitarian Parole, Cuban Adjustment Act, marriage to United States Citizen or Lawful Permanent Resident, VAWA, U-visa, T-Visa, DACA, Special Immigrant Juvenile Status, Cancellation of Removal, etc.

To bring it all back to these children coming to the United States, it might be wrong to cross illegally, but when you have no other option and when you fear for your life, we permit it and possibly reward it. The reason that we don't just turn people back and should not turn people back should be intuitive, but at times it has not been so easy to see. Once upon a time there were people who just kept saying the law is the law and acting like the law should be applied in a black and white manner. The result was that we turned away a thousand Jewish people fleeing the holocaust. There is even apparently a memorial monument to this horrible moment inscribed with the passengers list that shows what the artist thought were the four factors leading to exclusion: antisemitism, xenophobia, racism, and hatred.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_St._Louis

After this terrible period in history, the international community recognized that it screwed up. Many countries had failed because they had applied a legalistic framework to what was a humanitarian crisis. In response to this tragedy and others like it, we as part of the international community changed our law. We codified the Refugee Definition in 1980 and we effectively made what used to be illegal into something that was illegal but excused and thus made right. My point is that the law is always changing in response to the needs of our times. To say they entered illegally and then shut down the conversation and get no further ignores our current reality and the situation faced by these unaccompanied kids coming to the United States.

Yes, I as an American have ceded certain rights as part of the social compact. I have also ceded the ability to create all the rules myself or to have all laws mirror my own point of view. While I have ceded my rights and the ability to create all rules myself, I still have the right to be vocal in my criticism and work through the body politic to change laws.

You are an American?! I'm an American too! And as an American, I also do not think that people should be sneaking into countries either despite the fact that you keep telling me I do. In order to stop people from wanting to sneak in and encourage them to come in legally, I want to expand legal immigration. That's why I believe that the solution is an amnesty to forgive those people who are already here and make them legal and pursue this amnesty in tandem with vastly more permissive legal channels with vastly higher caps so that unskilled and skilled workers can come into this country. I want to create a more permissive system which allows people who want to come to come.

 

To expand the lower class and further separate rich from poor seems like a bad idea. Illegal and legal immigration has helped the US from having an aging population but creating a larger balloon of unskilled labor will only hurt the poorest in our country even further.

 

You are comparing illegal immigration in this country where tens of millions of people cross the border without repercussion to the holocaust? Now I know you're nuts.

Enabling people and subverting the law isn't criticism. There are many private citizens and agencies that actively work to subvert the law. You don't have the right to do that. Say whatever you want but providing material support to illegal immigrants isn't speech any more than helping hopeless people sneak into homes for a free meal is speech.

I'm pretty you're a wanna be UN delegate that just enjoys telling people how the world should be and how my rights as an American in my own country are secondary to the rights of foreign nationals illegally in my country. How laws don't really matter and if we don't like your laws we'll just ignore them.

Yeah, we don't need a more permissive anything. People all over the world want to immigrate to the US but the Mexicans and people from Central/South America can just walk over the border whenever they want. They don't need any paperwork, nothing. They do whatever they want and you sit here talking about how we need to let them all in, meanwhile millions of people around the world that follow the law and can't just pack up and walk over the border can wait a decade for their papers. Meanwhile we have to use resources to herd all these people up whenever they feel like walking into our country. Not to mention the social security fraud, identity theft, people just randomly picking your information or paying people to steal it that cause actual Americans all kinds of headaches. The depressing of wages in this country because of all the cheap labor. The women steaming across the border to have their babies here in our hospitals on our tax dollars so they can have an American citizen in the family to make it easier for them to say here. Then the rhetoric about work ethic. If I made ten times my income for the same work in another country I'd work pretty hard too. It's nonsense.

 

Rick Perry this morning: Obama is either inept or has an ulterior motive here...

The answer is actually both, Rick.

 

No, I explained the genesis of Asylum law to you. Another part of the history of Asylum was that we needed a way to deal with the masses of displaced people post World War II. You are welcome to read up on it on your own and educate yourself if you want.

Here is what you quoted just for reference since your below thought makes no sense:

Huh? How have I ever subverted the law or enabled people to break the law? All I have done is this thread is explained my disagreement with your point of view and the current state of our immigration laws. How do I not have the right to criticize the current legal regime for immigration? Who are you, the thought police?

Now don't be salty because you have no idea what the immigration laws are like in the United States. And how have I told you that your rights are secondary to non-citizens? For reference the only way I think that our rights as U.S. citizens are somehow secondary to non-citizens is with Cubans - they get free social services for a period of time simply for arriving to the United States and they enjoy more rights when petitioning for their non-citizen spouses under the Cuban Adjustment Act. If you are mad about Cubans having more rights than the rest of us, I recommend you lobby your congressman and our senators to change the law. I would be for changing it so that all U.S. citizens have the same rights as Cubans when petitioning for spouses, but if you want I guess you could bring them down to our level.

How do you see your rights as secondary to undocumented foreign nationals? What do you even mean? Why are you so caught up on your "what part of illegal don't you understand," "the law is the law" mentality? What is it about immigration policy that makes it so that you cannot understand that people have different policy perspectives than your own?

Ahh, here we have it. It's not about fairness or law you just don't know enough about our immigration system to get past the usual talking points. It's also that you seem to think that undocumented people are somehow worse than any other immigrants. Here's the thing, they aren't. Unless you count under-educated people as somehow worse than educated people. Your response give you away, you think these children coming here right now and the people that are already here are all dangerous, criminal, Hispanics. You are wrong. They aren't criminals (at least no more so than Citizens), and and they aren't all just Hispanics coming from our southern border.

You have no idea how our immigration laws are set up, you have no idea how they came to be or all the policy considerations that went into making them, you have no idea who is here or who is coming, and you don't care to learn because you think they are criminal, dangerous, tan skinned devils. Your time has past.

 

Rick Perry is inept and you have an ulterior motive here.

I promise that we won't elect Obama again.

 

I am for increasing the influx of skilled and unskilled labor. A rising tide lifts all boats when it comes to the economy. However, I agree, we should obviously not pursue a more permissive immigration policy in a vacuum. A robust social safety net can coexist with more people in this country if those at the top of the heap are willing to let it. A more permissive immigration policy is not some panacea to all ills but it is something that should be pursued as part and parcel of some broader policy of investment into the average American.

 

I am concerned when we let Supply and Demand drive wages
then artificially inflate the supply of workers by importing illegal immigrants
to deflate wages

Rocket River

 

And you're the other problem. You have no interest in solving anything, you provide no solutions to anything. You are as hyper partisan full of it as it gets. You literally can't post without taking some stupid shot or mentioning libruls yadda yadda yadda. Rick Perry is a fool. He's just playing his usual politics. Nobody outside of Texas gives a damn about Rick Perry. It's a disgrace to Texas that this idiot has run the state for so long no doubt with your vote.

 

Did I miss a recent world war that requires the US to provide "asylum" to anyone that wishes to cross our border without documentation? Alright. I'll edumacate myself on the post World War III world that I've somehow missed that requires unlimited Asylum to any Mexican to the exclusion of anyone that isn't within walking distance of the US border.

Notice how you didn't address anything I said and then claimed I said illegal immigrants were dangerous criminals? Can you find the quote where I said illegals are dangerous criminals? What I did say is that they come across the border and commit document fraud, they sneak across the border to have children here... flooding border hospitals and costing US tax payers, and I mentioned depressing wages with cheap labor. None of which you addressed in fact you just skipped right over it and accused me of saying illegals were dangerous criminals so find my quote on that please or I'll expect your retraction. And when you commit document fraud, you are in fact a criminal far different than an American that doesn't commit that fraud. Oh yes, the "usual talking points" that are a serious issue that you have no answer for because of course the law doesn't matter if you're a foreign national that feels like walking across the border.

Save me your racist insinuation bull****. That's so tired. I am latino, my mother and father are latino, my grandmother is latina, my great grandfather and great grandmother were latino, my great great grandfather and grandmother are latino, etc. You don't know the first thing about me dude. Go paint someone else as a racist if that's your thing because it won't fly with me.

What a waste of time.

 

Why can't Mr. Obama repeal the Trafficking Victims Protection Reauthorization Act of 2008? Come on he's the President, he can do whatever he wants right?

 

Texas is doing far better than the rest of the country. Can't argue with results. Perry is getting them, Obama? pfft no.

 

Yes, you did not know that people have a right to apply for asylum upon crossing a border and that's fine. Most don't win if it makes you feel better, but even non-citizens have due process rights. Also once again, these kids that are coming in aren't mainly from Mexico. If you don't like the law work to change it.

No quote, more of my own conclusion based on your harping on the law is the law. If you do not believe that they are dangerous and/or criminals, my mistake. Yes, they likely commit document fraud at a higher rate. The damaging form of document fraud is identity theft. There are a couple of solutions to cut down on identity theft. 1) Tell people no to do it and punish them harshly especially those that are engaged in the actual theft (just like drug distribution it is better to go after the source not the consumer), 2) Stop the roll-out of E-verify which incentivizes document fraud, 3) Make identities harder to steal, 4) Provide people with work authorization so that they have no incentive to use the identities of others. I would guess that the more malicious form of identity theft does not occur by undocumented workers but rather people who have a better understanding of the internet and less of an incentive to keep there heads down at work. Document fraud is a frequent talking point for people on the right. It's an easy sound bite and because it is very likely true that undocumented workers are more likely than U.S. workers to use someone's identity for work purposes - but it is something that is used to flatten the conversation and stifle discussion. I can acknowledge what you are saying, there are some crimes that they commit at a higher rate than non-citizens. Driving without a license is one, driving without insurance is another, false documents, and I think DWI is another one. Given that all but DWI fall on the continuum of crime of not having status, one solution is to provide them with status. If you are basing your immigration policy on something so easily changed you aren't engaging on the issue. I would hope policy makers don't craft immigration policy based on what seem to be your chief concerns of the law is the law and identity theft.

Yes, they cost in health services, but their portion of medical costs is small compared to their size because they tend to skew healthier and less likely to seek care than citizens or LPR. You might like this but their burden on the medical system is minor compared to their burden on the education system. I'm fairly sure that the amount that they put in to our education vis a vis the amount they take out of our education system is actually more unbalanced than health care. That's because the way that education is funded is by nature progressive with the poor tending to take out more than they put in.

On the other hand, their presence is a necessity to our current economic system. If we were to pursue some sort of legalization, their overall cost to U.S. taxpayers would be negligible and possibly positive depending on the exact contours of immigration reform:

For example, the CBO scored the Economic Impact of S. 744, the Border Security, Economic Opportunity, and Immigration Modernization Act. Any slightly variations on the package of reforms pursue would change so I use this to illustrate that legalization would not be just all doom and gloom like you seem to think.

But let's go beyond the economic aspect and get to the moral aspect, the human aspect. These kids who are coming are coming to join their parents who they have never seen. Additionally, many are fleeing physical harm or persecution that they have suffered or expect to suffer. Many do not have a choice whether to come or not. Their parents send for them and even if they don't want to their family in home country acquiesces for them. I don't agree that they should come illegally, but I understand why they do and my preference would be for their to be a legal method for them to come. I think we should respect the family as a unit for social stability and enact legislation that encourage and facilitates family unity.

I do know something about you. You are caught up on what the law is, not what the law should be. At the same time, you show little knowledge about the current immigration system, laws or effects. Through your lack of understanding, you buy into the facile talking points and mantras like "what part of illegal don't you understand," "anchor babies!," and "identity theft" that flatten the issue as a whole and numb the critical brain. At least the people that crafted those issues or turns of phrase know that they are simply designed to incite. You exclude evidence from your consideration that doesn't prop up your pre-conceived notions. And yes, just like white people can be xenophobic against other white people, non-white people can be xenophobic too.

 

I think that Republicans should take credit for the TVPRA - it will help them though are ongoing demographic shift. Bush did actually sign the 2008 TVPRA right before he left office. I think of it as one of Bush's greatest achievements along with his work on combatting HIV.