I think the PF spot is more extinct than the C positon. Outside of Griffin, Love, and Aldridge there are no real allstar PFs in the league. Ibaka is maybe borderline. Centers: Dwight Howard Tyson Chandler Joakim Noah Roy Hibbert Marc Gasol Pau Gasol Brook Lopez Al Horford Pekovic Bogut Tim Duncan so as bad as it is...i think the center position is actually deeper than the PF position.
And the SG position. There are plenty of good centers in the NBA right now. This thread would have been more accurate if it would have been posted in response to the Rockets giving a massive contract to Kelvin Cato and was based on the lack of centers of that time. Your (the original poster's) opinion that there are no centers is a 4 year old opinion that is no longer accurate.
I'm curious, do you really think that Dirk is not a legit all star, or did you simply forget him? Center position is deep indeed. And you could also add Cousins, Al Jefferson, Brook Lopez, Drummond... Lots of talent. Just no top tier superstars as fans are used to. In general, it's harder to build a top offense around a center today. The rules are more geared for guards.
SG position is tragic compared to 10 years ago. The PF position seems ok. Dirk, Love, Griffin, Aldridge, Bosh, Anthony Davis, ZBO, Millsap, David Lee, Monroe, Ibaka, West. Not to mention that at some point we have to start calling LeBron and Melo PFs.
More like the Centers that are great low post scorers and defenders are extinct. Most of the Centers in today's NBA are either great at offense or defense, but few are good at both. The only 20/10/2 player today is Anthony Davis.
The center position is as healthy and promising as it's been in the last 10 years. You even have a guy in Anthony Davis who could turn into a true, two-way Franchise Center.
Dwight can easily be a 20/10 guy if he hits close to 70% at the ft. His shooting form is a joke, reminds of that quick release video I saw in the hangout.
-So Dwight Howard would average nearly 5 assists per game if Thibodeau coached him? Doubt it. Remember when the Rockets were coached by Tom Thibodeau as Jeff Van Gundy's lead assistant and the guy in charge of working with Yao Ming? He didn't average 5 assists per game as a high post passer. Remember when the Rockers brought in high post passing guru Rick Adelman as head coach? Yao Ming still didn't turn into Brad Miller. Systems matter, but they don't turn NBA players magically into what they are not. Joakim Noah is a great passer and Dwight Howard just isn't at that level in terms of passing. Howard has other strengths that Noah doesn't have, like finishing with power around the basket. - Regarding the original topic: dominant lost post back to the basket players are fewer and less important to having a great NBA offense than they were in the past, but having a great center is still extremely important because of defense. Dwight Howard is very important because, when he plays well, he challenges almost every shot in the paint, and even defends perimeter players well when he switches a pick and roll-- and there are not many who do these things at the level he does them at.
It's like the refs want to take the outcome of the game out of the player's hands and put it into theirs. Games are never officiated the same. All of this calling it tight, letting them play is nonsense. They just want to control over who wins. Sometimes it's a flop and a no call, and other times it's an offensive foul on dwight.
I continue to believe that the legalization of zone defenses has done more to diminish the impact of the center position than anything else. Before, everyone had to guard someone. Now, with the zone, players guard an area which has allowed teams to clog the paint and negate the impact of having a franchise center who can work one on one against an opposing center. I see this happening to Howard whenever he gets the ball down low and the opposing team sends over one or more players to force the ball out of his hands. That's why his turnovers are so high as teams want to force him to put the ball on the floor which is not one of his strengths as he is somewhat average as a post-up player. The zone has allowed teams without franchise caliber centers to compete (see Miami) but it appears to have really hurt the few teams like the Rockets who actually have one.
The decline of the Center is a consequence of a number of rule changes to allow more scoring and make it harder to defend. 1. Elimination of hand checking. Previous to 2004, you were allowed to use hand checking. This meant you could keep a hand on a player at ALL times, AND push them at the same time, even when they were dribbling or shooting. This meant that it was MUCH harder to blow past someone as they could direct you forcefully into other defenders. Perimeter jump shots were MUCH harder to make as it's hard to keep your balance when someone is pushing you in mid air. You literally had to find a way to break completely open to have a decent chance at making a jump shot. It was also *much* easier to steal the ball, as you were maintaining contact and proximity. This is why you saw perimeter players dribbling with their backs to the basket even when they were at the 3 point line. This makes it MUCH harder on the Center position, as now the table is tilted towards speed and mobility at the guard position. This means that Centers are forced to defend guards more often than they did in the past as they blow past perimeter defenders. 2. Changes to illegal defense - addition of the 3s rule. In the 1990s, there was NO 3s rule. This meant that Centers could camp out in the paint for 35 solid minutes. They didn't need to be guarding anyone. Anyone who wanted to get a basket at the rim was facing a contested shot. Imagine you're Derrick Rose and *every* time you head to the Basket Dwight is standing there. It doesn't matter if you shift strong/weak side help, he does NOT have to leave the basket. Toss in that he can also use hand checking and it's dramatically harder to score a basket. 3. Elimination of wrapping/chucking and the hand rule. In the 1990s and before, you could keep TWO hands on the opponent. This allowed you to apply significantly more pressure. Additionally you could "wrap" or "chuck" players before they got the ball. You don't want Durant to get the ball? You put two hands on him, front him and tie him up. In the old NBA the only way a guy like Durant gets free is a pass on the move, a pass over the head of the defender, or well designed plays with picks and screens. This also made it harder for centers to score, unless you had dominant strength (ala Shaq). Shaq and Wilt would literally have guys hanging onto them as they went up to score (without any fouls called). 4. Reinstatement of zone defenses. Zone defense was eliminated early in the NBA as it made for extremely low scoring games. Zone defense means help defense in the paint is *always* very close, forcing players to the perimeter. Combined with hand checking and wrapping, it made scoring very difficult. So when you combine all these changes, what you see is the rise of jump shooting and fast perimeter guard play. You can't even touch a jump shooter anymore (versus hand checking them), and because you have to be "actively" defending someone it forces teams towards the "motion" defenses that you see today. The premium is now on "mobile" centers versus traditional post up bigs at the basket. The Center position is declining by design, and there's not much anyone can do about it. Instead, you get the golden age of Guards, where speed and jump shooting is highly valued. Guys like Steph Curry wouldn't be nearly as effective. Guards like Westbrook and Rose would struggle under the old rules. However, it makes for fun and exciting ESPN replays... I guess.
you're right, he's not getting 20-10-3 a game... he's getting 18.6-12.3-1.8 with a couple of steals a game... so its almost the same, but with better rebounding than your expectations.
Hand checking is the biggest rule change IMO. Allows perimeter players to roam more freely. Hand checking effected post defense too. NBA only allows 1 hand on a player nowadays when they're back to the basket with the ball, used to be 2 hands in years past. Defenders can't get as physical. Couldn't this be argued as helping post offense? Players were never allowed (80's and 90's at least) to camp in the paint unless their defender was in close enough proximity. Not sure why some think it was allowed. Are you now explaining how past rules made it harder for centers and perimeter players? 1) "Help" is still not allowed to camp in the paint unless their defender is in close enough proximity. 2) It can be argued that zone hurts perimeter players too. "Help" doesn't solely happen in the paint. Agreed many of today's perimeter players would suffer under the old rules.
This. And no, the C position is not extinct. It's just no one is particularly good at it. By default, Dwight's the best. I mean no true 6'11-7'1 player nowadays has the athleticism,talent AND skill level to score 25ppg. So it is a dying breed, but it's not extinct. If you go in and put a prime David Robinson in someone's team, they would dominate against a majority of the league. I mean DeMarcus Cousins has that ability, but that's all he has-- he has horrible body language, shot selection, etc., so it's a moot point. He's the only I can see that can actually legitimately dominate a game at the C position offensively, Dwight also dominates too but at more so controlling the paint. He's not a guy you can drop the ball down to and be and like get me 25, lots of coverage, and open up the court. Al Jefferson has excellent post moves, but is a complete crap defender, so a small ball team exploits this. Somehow make Jefferson into an above average defender, not even elite just not ****ty, and he's a huge game-changer. Small ball teams still struggle with teams of size(i.e Miami with Indiana, most teams with the Cs in the past few years).
Well, some PFs are now Cs by default. I think in this era, Horford is definitely a C though he keeps b****ing about needing to play PF, but in prevoius era's Horford is a PF for example. But in bold i broke down why none of them can change the game at a championship-level
