I'd say the era where steroids ran rampant with MLB turning a blind eye in the name of money is shameless bull****. It's my opinion that Bagwell likely did steroids but so did a great deal of his peers. Pick a date range throw an asterik on the records achieved in that era and move on. It's the price of silence for those who knew and didn't speak up.
what's your point here Granville? The guy was a professional athlete, and while so, he busted his ass in the gym and thus put on muscle mass. He retired because his shoulder was shot to hell. Since then he hasn't been able to lift weights the way that he use to, and with that the muscle mass that he built up has gone away. He also doesn't need to bust his ass in the gym even if he wanted to or could for that matter. I'm not a professional athlete, but I lift weights (and I've NEVER done a steriod in my life). I went a month not being able to lift because I messed my elbow up pretty bad and I lost a ton of mass as well. Enough so that my daughter would say, "daddy you're getting smaller". So every professional athlete that retires and gets smaller means they obviously did steroids to get bigger when they were playing?
It was a counter to the other set of photos saying that there wasn't much difference after he quit playing. It's pretty obvious that there was. I personally think the guy did steroids but if you don't for the reasons you listed, I respect your right to hold that opinion.
I think the important point is that it should be irrelevant if he did or didn't. He's one of the greatest baseball players of all time, he should be in the HOF.
Irrelevant only because MLB turned a blind eye to a huge problem. What I don't like now is HOF voters deciding who they think did or didn't cheat and holding that against them getting in. There also the question of inflated stats getting players in. In periods for example of where we got a high number of players hitting 50 plus homers a season does that beg the necessity to raise the criteria to get in? I'd personally lean toward yes. It's not proposterous to have a belief that Bagwell was amongst those who cheated. If I had a vote though with the absence of proof, I could not abstain from voting for him if he met the criteria of being in the HOF.
The way I see it, cheating and baseball have gone hand in hand since the very beginning, you put the best players in the HOF and you move on. IMO we should treat Bagwell's generation of "cheaters" the same as any other era's "cheaters". We're not going to yank Ted Williams or Mickey Mantle out of the HOF because they used corked bats to get an advantage (and the Mick used crazy cocktails of steroids and amphetamines as well) so we shouldn't keep Barry Bonds out for using what he used.
Here is the best breakdown on what Bagwell can bring statistically that few others can bring and have brought to the hall: Spoiler Frankly, when we discuss what may keep him out and what should possibly be overlooked, I don't know how the conversation doesn't end and begin there.
I don't know if he did them or not, I've always thought he likely did simply because of the era. That being said, there's no proof and there's no player pointing their finger so he should be presumed innocent from a hall standpoint. The difference in his size from peak of his lifting days to non playing isn't even remotely close to any kind of proof of steroids.
and painting every player in that era with the same brush of blame isn't? Selig and MLB turned a blind eye. Let's punish the players and subject guys with No evidence (except lameass photos) to witch hunts. Yeah, that fixes everything. Let's do that. Let's keep our athletes in glass houses and pass judgment on them for every little thing, while at the same time enjoying our relative anonymity.
So what is your proposal to fix everything? Keep ignoring the issue and therefore throw fuel on the speculation fire and these guys stay out of the hall forever? There are a lot of bull**** records that were set and HOF padded stats
There were two BS records. Two. Asterisk proven cheaters if you like, but put them in. Come on--Bonds was clearly an all-time great before he got jealous of the other roiders and went on the juice. But there is no "fixing it". Some things can't be fixed. You acknowledge the imperfection and move on.
If I were a voter I'd try to normalize the numbers somehow. Take historical averages, deduct a certain percentage off stats and then see how they measure up. Bonds is a Hall of Famer though. He was incredible before he ever got huge, same with Clemens.
Why do you think the "cheaters" of the steroid era are any different than the cheaters of every other era? Calling the records set in the steroid era BS records is pretty naive. Players of every era "cheated", if you want to get rid of all "BS records" and "cheaters" from the HOF you'd have to remove pretty much everyone and there'd be no records left. Treating the steroid era guys differently than we've treated players from every other era is what needs to change. End the witch hunt and teach the writers some history of the game.
Maris and Mantle and most of their generation used speed and other uppers to enhance performance. Guys in the 80s and 90s used pseudoephedrine.
| want to add, after further thought, that the terse and biting tone of my response is inappropriate if aimed at anyone in this discussion. And, since I quoted your post, it seems inappropriate. I do think this nonsense is dripping in irony and despicable hypocrisy--but that sentiment is aimed at Selig and at the Circus formerly known as BBWAA, not at anyone in this discussion.
Deep down I think a lot of us believe Bagwell did do steroids. But it's pretty obvious that PED's were an epidemic, pitchers used as well. I think more did use than didn't, and virtually all power hitters were dirty. But without any real evidence, it pisses me off that people think it's OK to just pick and choose who they "think" did steroids. If a guy was caught red handed (A-Rod, Manny, Palmeiro) than OK. Otherwise just judge people on performance. The guys who were clean should have screamed louder.
