OH and Mango, i know you asked heypee, but... that's because of strong offense by kobe and shaq and rick fox. the kings couldn't afford to do anything with kobe because the whole offensive unit was clicking. again, there are no gr8 individual guard defenders anymore (ironically, kobe's probably the closest to it). ok, now i mean it...i gotta go!!!
This offense/defense thing is irrelevant. Either you have someone who is arguably the best player in the game, or you don't. That has been the difference the past 20 years or so in who wins the title. The Spurs or Lakers will win the title this year, because they have Shaq and Duncan. No one in the league is anywhere close to the level that those 2 guys play at. That's the bottom line. Another thing -- the Eastern Conference sucks. Why even discuss it? Every single playoff team in the West this year would beat the Bucks in a series. Every single one. The Rockets maybe could too. Are you telling me the TWolves couldn't beat Milwaukee in a series? Cmon. Toronto was 3-1 against the Sixers this year in the regular season, so if Philly is 'struggling' in the playoffs against them, it shouldn't be too much of a surprise. No offense vs. defense analysis is necessary. It's a matchup problem.
hell, I can illustrate the SG-shouldn't-be-a-one-dimensional-defensive-specialist theory with history. Here is the starting SGs in the finals since Detroit won it all. I only see Mario Elie. Conversely, there are more defensive liabilities (hornacheck, miller, pierce, scott) <pre><font face="courier"> Dumars Scott Dumars Drexler Jordan Scott Jordan Drexler Jordan Majerle Starks Maxwell Anderson Drexler Jordan Pierce Jordan Hornachek Jordan Hornachek Houston Elie Miller Kobe </pre></font> Anyone what to move it back to the conf finals losers we can add Craig Ehlo for defense and Voshon Lenard, and for one-diminsional shooters add more Hornachek/Pierce/Miller yrs and add Jeff Malone, Smith, Isiah Rider and Del Negro. <pre><font face="courier"> Jordan Hornachek Jordan Hornachek Dumars Drexler Ehlo Jeff Malone 20ppg Starks Pierce Miller Hornachek Anderson Del Negro Anderson Hornachek Lenard Drexler Miller Jones/Kobe Miller Rider Miller Kobe Houston Smith </pre></font>
I know where you are coming from, but I don't buy Isiah as best in the league ever, then all of a sudden Jordan being best. I also don't buy Duncan being the best versus Shaq. And Duncan's team will win again this year.
It's a very interesting debate that you Rocket's fans have going on regarding Webber. It's much like the same debate that us Kings fan have. Chris Webber is a very, very good player, however he is not a superstar. The Rockets would be stupid in not trying to sign him. However, I find it funny that the article written by Dale Robertson implies that Webber is sick and tired of the fans berating him. Robertson makes this claim without a quote or anythin, seems like he is trying to spin it in the Rockets favor. I, for one, think that Webber is going to re-sign in Sacramento. His father has come out in the last few days, stating that the webber family wants chris to stay in sac. His father has a lot of influence on him. Chris loves attention and is going to check out what's out there in the free agent market. Once he sees what's out there, he will see that the best chance for a championship is in Sacramento. After game 4 of laker series, the media conveniently omits quotes in which he refers to the Kings as "We", when talkin about team goals for next season. Houston has a good young team, with a great backcourt but doesn't have any semblance of an inside game that can challenge the western powerhouses. If he sign with the rockets, who is gonna be down low with him on defense? Cato, Rogers, Thomas, Olajuwon(he's in the downturn of his career), or collier? None of those guys provide an inside presence that pollard and divac provide. Webber isn't the only reason the kings won 55 games this year, the kings have excellent shooters and bangers like pollard down low. The kings met their goals this season and will continue to prove the critics and so-called experts wrong next year. Remember the lakers were swept out of the playoffs for about 3 years before they finally broke through and won a championship last year. Out of all the teams that won 50+ games this year, the kings had the youngest roster. Geoff Petrie (nba exec of the year) will not let this team fall apart. ------------------
So Zeeke wasn't the best in the league -- that takes it down to 90+% of the time since 1980 that the best player hasn't won the title. Is there another factor that you are willing to say means you will win the title more than having arguably the best player? How can you say Duncan was not better than Shaq? I'd like to hear your case. 4-0 sweep, 1st Team All-Defense, better go-to guy, etc. I'd say Duncan more than proved who was better, no?
I could argue both sides. But my point is ONLY about SGs, not the whole team. Lakers/Spurs have had the best defense three years in a row. And I think Chicago's offense was overrated. They beat people with flurries of trapping TOs and sound rebounding. There defense smothered Stockton with Pippen traps of the PnR, thereby destroying Utah's heralded precision offense. So, I guess I'm in the middle here. I agree with defense wins, but I agree with verse that defensive specialists from the guards have little playoff record. How can we refute 12 years of Final 4 SGs? The SG must score.
No. Your point is as elegant and simple as any. I guess I always stressed the defense part since I look at an NBA revolution occurring with Detroit--a revolutionary defense to stop the Boston/Laker juggernauts, which many conference finalists started copying. It is natural that the one with the best player will have the edge when defenses are equal. And just barely when it came to '94....phew....was I sweating out that one. [This message has been edited by heypartner (edited May 16, 2001).]
I guess I should have left work early today after all, 'cause I think I'm missing a demonstration of what defense can do. The Sixers appear to have decided that, Game 5 being so important and all, they'd introduce the Raptors to their friend, MR. BUZZSAW! 33-12 after one quarter, 45-20 with 8 minutes left in the 2nd quarter as I type this. The 76ers forced 10 turnovers by Toronto in the 1st quarter! Probably another one of those "coincidences" where a good offensive team just forgets how to shoot and how to handle the ball when faced with a top-notch defensive team. ------------------
his stock has dropped for sure! buy low! sell high! (hopefully we dont have to liquidate, pippen-style) ------------------ purvis was never short.
People are citing past examples of Championship teams as role models of roster composition and a player's duties/roles on the court. Is it fair to say that we should use past history as a guide in what a Championship Roster should be? Mango ------------------ Get it right or just don't do it! Resistance is futile....you will be assimilated. Start more Webber threads!
Funny thing is. . both the years given were Years Rockets were IN THE FINALS 81 and 94 Rockets = TEAM DEFENSE Rocket River ------------------
I think that may not be wise At least for this coming year none of the past years had to deal with such ridiculous new rules Rocket River ------------------
It's good to see the other side of the matter. As Rockets fans, we debate our chances of getting Webber, or whether we should. As a Kings fan, you think he'll stay. As far as the "we" in his quotes, I also read recent comments praising Rick Adleman...but delivered in the past tense: "He taught me...he was..." Etc. The use of "we" is easily learned. Agents can help with this. "Don't close any doors until your next contract is signed, don't give away what you want to do." I think the only way he'll stay is if he allows his father to browbeat him over the issue. It can happen, I suppose. Over the years, Chris has spoken in interviews about "being a man" and basically growing up, which he still hasn't really done, and makes me think his dad is a really stern presence in his life. The Jim Gray interview confirmed that. (Sorry about the Pop Psychology 101.) Parents always say "you're a grown man and can make your own decisions" but still try to influence those decisions, for better or worse. I hope his father will understand whatever he has to say because he clearly doesn't want to be in Sacramento. Parents can be stiff-necked and their vision clouded ("I think YOU should stay here in Sacramento because the Maloofs are good to YOU"....no, Dad, they're good to YOU and YOU get to live in the big city). The Maloofs were smart to win over Webber's dad because of his influence over the son. But Webber can't stay in Sacramento just to please everybody else. "I resent being sent here in the first place" and that final glance around Arco Arena after Game 4 (and how he allowed his conditioning to deteriorate so badly after his ankle injury, unless it was worse than anyone knew) were, to me, very telling. ------------------
ESPN's Jack Ramsay agrees with you, Rox: "Until this past weekend, I thought CWebb would stay in Sac...but after being with him, the Kings players and Coach Adelman...my guess is that he'll be gone." ... (repeating in a later answer) ... "His body language and the feel from his teammates and Coach Adelman is that he's gone." http://espn.go.com/community/s/2001/0514/1197998.html (P.S. I can vouch for the fact that in previous chats -- he does them every week for ESPN -- he said that he thought Webber would stay.) ------------------
do i have any "offensive" believers yet? go bucks. defense can't stop them....only offense can. p.s. gascon, would you like some salt with your crow???
Ummm ... but George Karl says they won with defense. And 13 blocked shots in the box score tends to back him up. What does make the Bucks, to some extent, an interesting EXCEPTION to the general dominance of defensive-oriented teams is that their offense is so perimeter-oriented that it's harder for teams with great interior D (like the Hornets, or the Spurs for that matter) to slow them down. Even so, the Hornets played the Bucks much tougher than Orlando did, largely because their interior defense was so much better. Obviously, though, you need to be effective on both sides of the court to win a championship. Do you really think this is news to anyone? ------------------
MMMmmmmmmmmm............... I love salted crow. Still, do you really think they have a prayer against the Lakers? The "drive inside and pop the quick jumper" routine is going to collapse with that big gorrilla waiting there for them. They had better all have a night like Allen had last night or they're toast. Lakers in 4. ------------------ Gascon
Now I'm confused again....*sigh* Is Shaq smart like a Big Aristotle, or strong and intimidating like a Big Gorilla?
