last time i checked cwebb averaged over 25ppg and over 12rpg against la. this despite having 2 centers who were scared sh_tless (insert an "i" or an "o" there) against "diesel". this despite having a hurt ankle (2, i believe). this despite not being able to go inside, since the diesel had a picnic set up in there. STILL, he came into game 4 averaging 28ppg and 12 rebounds. who here is ready to call that a disappointment? who here is willing to say those aren't all star power forward #s? those are allpro #s, even shooting at 43%. especially while playing both unhappy and hurt. especially while watching the rest of your big men (diflop, pollard, funderburk) go out like little b****es against diesel. the scary thing is that he could have played better! i tell you what, if he gets no better, he's all we need at that spot. cato, if he can stay out of foul trouble, couple with either dream or a drafted center, along with a shooting, defensive minded sf, is more than enough for this team to take the next step. btw, if not webb, then who is good enough for those who don't want him??? realistically, nobody. at least no one that's coming up soon that will leave. gimme webber. gimme battier or jefferson gimme k. johnson (or any defensive center who can hit a short j) gimme forte. we get that, and we're no less than the 4th seed in the wild, wild west. at they, IMO, are all feasible to acquire.
Is Mutumbo leaving Philly? Hah. Webber is what is out there. Ratliff isn't a free agent. It'll cost us talent and cap to acquire other players mentioned which is a lot worse than just cap. We NEED a big man who rebounds and scores. This team is not like the Kings at all. The Kings are based around ball movement and outside shooters, rather than slashing. The Rockets are filled with creators. There are very few teams in the league that have one guy who can penetrate like Mooch, Steve and Cuttino, let alone 3. Webber plays with his back to the basket more than Mo, and stays down low more. Think how many buckets Los scored, and Cato would've scored if he didn't have iron hands, by just waiting near the basket and a guard driving and dishing to him. Webber can/will do that in addition to a back to the basket game we lacked, and the outside shot displayed by Mo. He is a premiere player, and one of the top 3 PFs in the game. Brian Grant's name was mentioned. He'll make about 2.5 mill less, rebounds less, and scores a significant amount less. Yippee, with that 2.5 mill maybe you could afford Evan Eschmeyer or Todd Maculloch. ------------------ "That's been a lifelong dream of mine." -Vince Carter, after laying it in on a breakaway, much to the Vancouver crowd's displeasure.
http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/Forum3/HTML/012669.html aelliott wrote: "........every one of those teams except for the '95 Rockets was a top 5 defensive team. Several of them,however, were mediocre or worse on offense. Sorry, but the numbers say that defense wins championships. What those numbers suggest, is that if your not a top 5 defensive team, then your probably not going to win a title." Mango ------------------ Get it right or just don't do it! Resistance is futile....you will be assimilated. Start more Webber threads!
Chris Webber v. LA Lakers: FG: 42 - 100: 42% FT: 75% Rebounds: 12.8 Assists: 3.8 Points: 26.3 yea, he can't stand being the man. can you imagine those numbers with a center who would at least TRY to defend shaq? and, yes, cato DOES at least TRY to defend shaq. there is no case against getting webber.
mango, i'm not sure what your point is. i'll stick by my statement 10 times out of 10. did la win with offense or "great defense"? i'd say offense by a long shot. having at least one player score 40+ with 15+ boards in almost every game in a series is more important than holding cwebb to 42% shooting.
Reading all these posts is interesting with a number of salient points. Undoubtedly Webber is a good player. The underlying fear about him, whether deserved or not, is the Scottie Pippen experience. I've been waiting for someone to make the potential comparison. Afterall, Quitten wanted to come to Houston too, didn't he? ------------------
I dont understand why this defensive issue is being brought up. This team is going to be a top 5 defensive team before its all said and done. Webber, Francis and Cuttino with two defensive minded role players should develop quite nicely in terms of team defense if Webber ends up signing here. ------------------ Check out the Best Source for Draft Info Draftsource.net [This message has been edited by MManal (edited May 14, 2001).]
IF WE GET WEBBER Our line up is as following C- Collier [I REFUSE TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT CATO EXISTS!!!]/Los PF - Webber/KT/Los SF - Walt/Bullard/Langhi SG - Mobley, Francis PG - Francis/Mooch and we still have yet to draft anyone Defensive like .. . it is not as bad as it looks in the ZONE world Collier/Webber/Bullard may look soft but they tall. On Offense We have a very good shooting frontline with a very good penetrating Backcourt HONESTLY . . .we'd be an inverse spurs [Good inside guys with good jump shooting backcourt] IMO not bad That line up alone IMO could win 40 games. As far as the future 1. we have yet to REALLY see all that KT, Langhi and Collier can do 2. we do have 3 draft picks [and will have more in the future not to mention the ever so important 2nd round draft picks] I think we will be ok. Just watch and see Rocket River ------------------
speaking of the spurs, allow me to pin point exactly who the spurs cannot deal with: 1) phoenix 2) milwaukee (Lost both games to the bucks this year) 3) philly what do these teams have in common?? is it the famed "great d"????? hell no. what they have are guards who dominate the tempo of the game along with serviceable big men who can hit an open shot. you're not going to beat the spurs in a 1/2 court game, give up on that. you'll beat them in transition (fast breaks and secondary breaks). adding webber to an already dominant backcourt is almost unfair to the rest of the league. not only do the lakers and spurs et al have to deal with a superior backcourt. they also have to deal with a power forward who can drop 30 and 15 on you in the blink of an eye. oh yea, and a center (if it's hakeem) who'll "buss yo ass" too.
We all know the Rockets have the luxury of exploring countless avenues this offseason; maybe more than any previous Rockets team in history. It'll probably get more and more complex before any definite plan is pursued. Signing Chris Webbber, it seems to me, would be the simplest and safest route to follow. For the first time in Webbers career he would not be asked, nor expected to be the big enchilda, and that may be just the burden lifter he needs. If the Houston Rockets are Chris Webbers over-riding interest it'd be foolish for Rudy and company to abandon any full pursuit of Webber. The fact of the matter is, and this is the Rockets owners chief concern(hence the scottie pippen trade), is that Chris Webber will fill thousands of otherwise empty seats. ------------------
les alexander mathematics: big name + winning team = sellouts. ***************** sorry to flood this thread, ya'll. i'll chill for a sec....
U know Milwaukee Swept the Lakers too. Rocket River [Didn't we beat Milwaukee ;-) WITHOUT WEBBER? and Thumped Philly . . . .. ] ------------------
sorry, call me a liar milwaukee was UNDEFEATED against the west's top 4 teams.... look at their style of play. that's how the rockets can reach the top o' the heap. they are already 1/2 way there. IMO, adding cwebb puts us to 4/5s of the way there. adding forte (bench scorer), an ervin johnson clone (ken johnson?), and either battier or jefferson puts us in the top 2 of the west...#1 if we can keep hakeem, cato and drop shandn somehow.
Starting lineup will be more like this Jackson/Cato (you may not like him but he is alot better than Collier) Webber Jefferson Mobley Francis And that lineup can easily win 55games maybe more. ------------------ President of the Steve Francis, Jamal Crawford,Larry Hughes, and Charles Woodson fan club.
verse-Only 4/5ths? With Webber, we're better than Milwaukee. I'll take our backcourt next year over Allen and Cassell. We'll be able to get a center type (a BIG body like Haywood could be at 18, and Johnson should be there). Hakeem might stick around, and if we come out of the draft with Jefferson or J. Johnson and Haywood or Ken Johnson we're in excellent position. ------------------ "That's been a lifelong dream of mine." -Vince Carter, after laying it in on a breakaway, much to the Vancouver crowd's displeasure.
I'm the friend of Will's whose e-mail he posted at the top of this thread. Two additional thoughts: 1) Of course Webber's paid to be a star, and not just a thug. But there's a reason his position is called "power" forward. More often than not the guy playing the 4 has to be the team enforcer--even if he's also the star. (Think: Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, Antonio McDyess.) Note that the two guys Webber mentioned (Oakley, Grant) are both 4s, as were the others SamCassell brought up (Mason, Thorpe, Rodman). Webber won't play the 5, and (unlike Kevin Garnett) probably can't play the 3, so what exactly is he looking for, an enforcer center? It could happen (see Duncan-Robinson and Rasheed-Dale Davis, sort of), but it's certainly the exception (and wouldn't be the case if Webber became a Rocket). And while Vlade may not be in Shaq's class, he's a top-ten center with a thuggish backup in Pollard. Unless Webber goes to San Antonio, Portland or LA, he's unlikely to do better. Webber's been in the league long enough to know that he can't expect (and shouldn't need) someone else to protect him. 2)As for Webber "choosing" his first three teams, of course he didn't. But neither was he an innocent victim in the wheeling and dealing of unscrupulous GMs. Which is to say, there's a reason that two teams (about to be three) in a row traded him for vastly inferior players. When Webber arrived in Golden State, he claimed to love it. The fans were great, the team was young and fun and winning. He was terrific pals with Latrell Sprewell and Billy Owens. But those friendships didn't stop him from sabotaging the team when he felt Don Nelson didn't "respect" him enough. So he went on strike until he was traded to Washington, where he immediately pronounced himself as happy as the day is long. He was reunited with Fab Five buddy Juwan, the fans were great, the team was young and fun and winning--until Webber had some problems with pot and partying, and was angry that management didn't stick up for (i.e., "respect") him more than they did. So he all but forced another trade for lesser value to Sacramento, where the fans were great, etc, etc, and where he announced that Jason Williams and Vlade and Turkoglu are his favorite guys to play with in the world--but he's still about to leave them in the lurch, much as he did Sprewell and Howard. Webber's a smart guy; he's charming and outgoing and gregarious. He's also a complete narcissist. He's like Bill Clinton: You're his best friend (or fan)--until he decides to dump you. Golden State and Washington have both been in shambles since Webber passed through; Sacramento may fare better, but then again they may not. So, sure, the Rockets would be better off next year with Webber, winning 55 games and making it to the second round of the playoffs--and they could do it. But that's the answer to the wrong question. The right question is, will the Rockets be better off in three years, when Webber's decided that maybe Houston doesn't have the best fans after all, and maybe Stevie isn't his best friend in the world, and maybe he's not getting the respect he deserves, and maybe he'd rather play someplace else after all. ------------------
Great discussion guys, I guess I'm on the fence with signing Webber, at least I was until now. Before I always thought about Will's question posing whether we should fill our capspace with Webber when we have other needs to fill. That question always caused me to back down from wanting to sign Webber. Then I read aelliott's response and it dawned on me that we'll get the capspace back when Walt gets off the books next year. That's 5 million plus whatever extra capspace we'll have next season. If we signed Webber, the Rockets would be the young up and coming team that every free agent would want to be a part of. There's no doubt that we could pick up a solid free agent to fill whatever extra holes we would have after signing Webber and our draft picks pan out. I'm assuming we'll draft a starting SF and the rest of the picks will just be backups. Our major need would be at the C spot. I'm just browsing through the free agent list for next season and a name that jumps out to me is John Wallace. Right now he's making 2.2 million, we could easily fit him in next season with the capspace Walt would leave us. He'd be the perfect player to add to a lineup featuring Webber, Francis, and Mobley. Anyway, I'm not suggesting that will happen, but now I realize that signing Webber won't cap us out for many many years to come. Another question I was thinking about while I was reading through this thread involved Cato. We all know how unmotivated that b*stard is, but who on this team would actually get into his face and challenge him? I don't see Hakeem as the type of guy that would get in Cato's grill and motivate him to earn his paycheck. Maybe Webber could be the man to push Cato? If not, oh well, Cato will just still suck, just a thought. My only complaint about Webber is he faces up too much and settles for that shot. MManal brought up that Rudy T likes to have a PF that can shoot from the outside, unfortunately Webber doesn't hit those outside shots with any regularity. If I want a jump shooting power forward, then just resign Taylor, his shot is almost automatic. I just don't want Webber getting Scottie Pippen disease and settling for outside shots, especially with a team that can play a zone. It just seems like Webber would take that outside shot more often with a zone, and if he could hit it, thats one thing, but his shot is fairly average from the outside. I'll just hope that the games I saw him take too many jumpshots were the exception, and not the rule. Anyway before this thread, I was torn on getting Webber, but now I'm officially on the bandwagon! ------------------ You must always give the Dream back his change!
For all of you salivating over the $4 mil the Rox will be getting in 2002, remember that the organization also has a top tier point guard whose salary will be going up significantly once his current contract is up. I'm not so sure that Les Alexander will be keen on filling up the cap completely (or more) and then paying the Franchise the max. Let's be realistic. ------------------
