IMO, they are all derogatory. I don't for a second buy the notion that the N-word is more derogatory than the "C" word as many of you think it is. Unfortunately, most of the general public thinks that the N word is so much worse. Hell, look at this thread...the "C" word is spelled out but the "N" word isn't. On one hand, African Americans consider the N-word extremely offensive (and rightfully so). On the other hand, many of them call each other by the N word all the time. I'm jewish, as are some of my friends and we don't call each other Jewboy or anything else that we wouldnt want anyone else to call us...and Im fairly sure Chinese people dont refer to each other as G's or C's.
Rockbox hit it on the head with his history lesson! As a side note...The term "C" word was also used in the US describing chinese slave labor use on the railroads in the west. So, history proves again that words do take on meanings beyond literal.... Just like the "C" word, the "N" word to me should not be used by anyone in anyway. It is an insulting word all the way around--true it is much more offensive coming from one race to another, but, IMHO, the history of the word is just too offensive to even consider the use either way. It's literal meaning is a descriptive insult too. I do not buy the idea that it is okay for a particular race to use the word with each other, because to me it is not a pretty word. Blame history for this, but also know that the literal meaning is also not pretty either. History does take precedence over the literal meaning in this case, but I cannot see rationalizing the use of the word either way when a particular group thinks it is an affectionate term when used by the same race. If the word offends people, do not use it!!! We americans love to rationalize language use....why not use another word when using it as a term of endearment...is it really that difficult to use another word?....the word is just not worth it.....
I think the reason african americans can use the word together is because it's said with a spirit of irony. Not an irony which is obvioius or even conciously referrenced but an irony which is born out of sharing a common history and using one of the most oppressive trademarks of that history as a kind of term of endearment. I also wonder why non-blacks feel the need to say the 'n' word. Maybe it's because that compared to many other cultures we just aren't one which is often very sensitive to the signifigance of 'history'. Or maybe we just want to be in the joke, or maybe its because many people just can't stand to be told that they can't do something. I wish I had some time to really think about this and make my point but the 'words' fail me. On words, they are the very fabric upon which humankind has built it's societies. Words are very very important. This is a great thread. Cato sucks.
backward: great post. the irony of it could be the "hidden" reason and for that matter, I can completely jive with the irony...never though about it. still, I think the irony is overused today. the word has taken on a term of endearment and the irony is lost most of the time.
While the "N" word might be taboo for those of us who realize its origins, there is a whole generation growing up on rap/hip hop not knowing of its derogatory meaning. I find it odd that the people most offended by the oppression that this word came to represent are some of the ones pushing into our everyday vernacular. So, while 10 years ago a question like why can't a white man use that word was seldom asked, now its not such a crazy question. I mean, white people buy the records, don't they? As so many words do, this one's meaning is changing. It seems to be taking the role of words like, buds, homeys, my crew, etc. Of course, it is always obvious what someone's meaning is in the context that they use it. I personally don't like or use it because I am too old and square and it still holds some of that old meaning to me.
Another Brother got his answer and is satisfied with the explanations. I don;t think this thread is going to do anyone any good by staying open...at least in this forum anyway. Someone is gonna cross the line eventually and it's gonna get ugly.
it is great that Ming has already cast change upon our great city. look at intellectual his drafting has spurred! this is awesome! We can debate the severity of the "C" and "N" words and compare whose history is more notorious, who has been more persecuted, who can use the word, when you can use the word and why others continue to use it or we can just all agree that when a group is offended, the word should not be used in any form. JWD Walker's point about the lines between races is true. Cultures evolved from one another and there is only a fundamental difference in education of each other!
I believe that the search for understanding that started this thread is to be applauded and this desire to understand each other is the only way to end racism. The discussion on one race being able to say the N word and the other not is another story and this kind of double standard creates the type of division that those same people complain about. I can use this water fountain and you can’t. I can say the N word and you can’t. The fact is, people that use this word have no more understanding of the derogatory nature of the word than the people that they say can’t use it. The fact that its use by one race and not by another cannot be justified proves this. And if those people who disrespectfully use the N word were to use it in front of their great great Grandmother who truly understands what the N word is all about, she would knock them into next week. O.R.
LOL Sorry it took me a while to respond to the Cato Institute's learnings. Oh, and WRONG FORUM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Let's just remove "UNDER GOD" from the pledge and be over with it. Let's see gay people can't marry Adopt children with one another Would if I choose to say "ONE NATION UNDER SATAN" would that be o.k.? We keep coming up with ways to seperate ourselves from one another. PRO-LIFE? Yeah you care about the unborn child but what about the guy under the bridge? you don't give a s*** about him do you? Or whether people have access to the best health care? You'd rather blow up an abortion clinic! American Taliban Oh sure give the caucasian an attorney, but not the arab born in America! (P.s. I"M white) Just try to be funny with out talking about race and you may be one of the only african-american comedians who can...now that will make you different as a person.
B-ball freak....I was going to say the same thing basically. I am old school rap and the word was hardly every used in the music medium for obvious reasons: 1) it was not an acceptable use of the word, because old school rappers understood the deragatory nature and it was used only in rare "ironic" situations 2) the people buying the rap records were mainly white and would not see the word as a term of endearment or a greeting....with t his said the word today has been watered down to where if a rapper does not use it in their music, they are seen as "pop" and selling out.....(i.e. will smith). okierock, you tha man!
What does my basketball knowledge have to do with this? That's offensive and derogatory. Let's not argue about this. There are few topics I read about that African American history and literature, as well as Chinese history. It is because I admire them both greatly. I apologize for getting into this thread and striking a narrow and shallow comparison. It was late at night, and I wanted to chime to agree with Another Brother. I did not intend to disrespect Chinese Immigrant history. I apologize. I did speak here mainly to say that I look at derogatory words by the passion behind their use and the reaction to hearing them. I agree with Another Brother. They are not the same. I don't think they were the same thing at any time in history, despite the horrible racist treatment of Chinese immigrants. Chinese immigrants were treated with terrible racism. We could say they were somewhat bought and sold and packed into boats for the Western "slave camps." That's true. But all that was Black Market exploitation...(no pun intended)...Slavery was legal, so it is much more ingrained in our culture at much deeper roots. I respect your knowledge of Chinese history. Please respect Another Brother's knowledge of African American history. Don't dismiss him by saying...."hey, it was just as bad for us." That accomplishes nothing. I don't know. I know there is this feeling to treat everyone the same, and call all racism bad, but my belief is there is levels of it. Flattening down everything to be equal in some politically correct fashion has its purpose, but it offends people to do that, almost as much as ignoring their history does. You know in that ...."No, my life is worse that yours" type of way. By the reaction to this thread, let's step back and look at the larger picture that the N word does a lot more damage to racial relations than Chinaman. If a Chinese poster reversed this topic..."I don't understand N word" what would the reaction be? It's deep in the culture across several layers and several races. Most of the differences, imo, is in how the words are used...the motives beyond them. If we are talking about historical differences, then the words clearly don't have the same present day impact. Think about the present-day motives behind how the N-word is used versus Chinaman. That is the difference I look at, to unravel what is PC and what is evil. Cheers, D-Up....this is a very hard subject to breech on the Internet. Let's try to understand each other. I do appreciate talking about this....it is one of my favorite subjects. The subject of race, I believe is one of the top 2 or 3 subjects to discuss. Let's not allow mistrust of these conversations to influence our ability to discuss this. We've never met. Benefit of the doubt is in order....and it is better that both sides shutting up for fear of offending. Tolerance of discourse is in order regarding racist and racially discharged subjects. We can't accomplish anything by shunning people and saying, "My race is equally offended as yours." Reit, "Negro" and "Colored" are still in use, and not completely in a derogatory way. I recall in an elementary school teacher having a discussion with us about which word is most accepted. Many black kids preferred Negro to Black. Many elder Black people don't like change, and they'd prefer to be called what they are used to, and in a respectful manner....and that is not African American.
I'm a gook. A lot of my friends call me C-Ly (yeah, I know it's creative), Charlie, Twanky, Commie, and the one I enjoy the most, Viet Cong. Who gives a ****? That's what I am. Even when people try to use these terms to insult me...like "Hey whats up gookers, you gonna go eat a dog or what?" it's like "Okay...technically I am a gook..." but it just shows how ignorant you are for calling me that. I think all of us should use these kinds of things to make us stronger, not cry about it.
Please explain it to me then. If all men are to be treated equal, please explain why this does not apply to all men. This is a great chance to help me understand.
I like to call my friends "f#$kface, but that does not mean I sing about it and openly use it on a daily basis in public places. I just wanted to say that I think we have to realize some moderation too. But, claiming that anglos will never understand the use of the "N" word is bogus. Most people who use the "N" word today really do not get the true meaning of the word and how the meaning offends some folks within their own race! Like I said earlier, if it offends a group of people, keep it to yourself and your group as not to spew it among the general public....
Colby, "All men are created equal" but I still wonder why all men aren't treated equal. I guess it's OK for blacks to use the 'N' word in the same way it's OK for fat people to call each other fat, or women to call each other b****es. Then again, is it OK at all? Dude, I almost hate I got this thing started, I have been called all sorts of names and had my intentions questions, but at last count 957 people had viewed this thread and I for one have been helped immensely. BTW when you get an answer that you are satisfied with, please forward it to me!!!!
This has definitely been a learning experience for me. I had no idea that Chinaman was an offensive term to someone born in China or to people of Chinese descent. I could see how it would be offensive to someone who wasnt...but I kind of always thought it was the equivalent of Chinese man. I also didnt know that black man was offensive to people of color. Of course, it is common knowledge and common sense in America that the "N" word, the "G" word or the other "C" word are offensive ...especially when spoken by other races as an insult...and have always in my opinion been derogatory. The thing is, I thought of Chinaman or black man as more of a descriptive term than an insult. Now I wouldnt normally use the term Chinaman...unless as in this case I know Yao Ming is from China...I would probably say Oriental when describing someone of an unknown Asian background. Now I find out that Oriental is offensive as well as Asian? Now I cant describe a black guy as being black? Quite frankly I think these terms like Chinese American and African American are kind of silly. I mean most "African Americans" have never been to Africa...and that probably could be said for most "Chinese Americans" etc. My opinion is that if you are a citizen of this country you are an AMERICAN...period. If you are a citizen of an African country who is living in the US...then you are still African. Yao ming is Chinese...period. The color of your skin, your family heritage, etc. makes you different from other Americans only in appearance. If someone said I was "German American" simply because a long long time ago some distant relative migrated from Germany (as is evidenced by my last name) I would think that was mighty silly since was born here and have lived here all my life. Ive never even visited Germany. Conversely if I was indeed a citizen of Germany...I dont think I would be offended if someone called me German...in fact...that is the acceptable term that Germans call themselves. Along those same lines, if someone described me as a white guy with brown hair I wouldnt be offended...that would be accurate. I mean we dont all look the same....thats life. I dont want to offend people but to me...it seems like you cant say anything anymore without offending someone....even if that was not your intent.
My friends and I are loose spirits that make fun of each other and our races all the time. But not one of them, no matter how drunk, would ever call me a chink or gook. They've even told me that. And if one did, we'd have a problem.
