Maybe but those rules should not be arbitrary If an Isreali citizen did similar . .. . . .they would not be treated similarly That is the biggest issue in this country Selective Law Enforcement Rocket River
@Salvy @CrixusTheUndefeatedGaul I’d put this dude on Squid game That would be DEI cause he’s not Korean
I think we are in a place like this today because of a lack of empathy skills this author expressed. He expresses this opinion out of self preservation because he knows precedent like this can swing the other way and be weaponized towards him. But at the end of the day the root issue that led us to this is the same lack of basic empathy skills this person is expressing.
Did what exactly? What would the Israeli citizen need to do? I can see Jewish permanent resident students who participated in anti- genocide protests being targeted also. Is that what you mean? If a Jewish resident expressed empathy for Palestinians?
Why is running cover for Hamas repugnant to him? Basic human decency, if I had to guess. No one should support a group that would send armed people into a music festival to go on a rape and murder spree. It shouldn't even really need to be explained to you, Mr. Empathy.
While I would say empathy is important, I also think taking a principled stance even if you don't have empathy for someone is just as important and perhaps more so.
I want you to one day give room for a Palestinian to develop hate in their heart for things you would develop hate in your heart for also if the same things and conditions were applied to you. That is all. I empathize and understand a Israeli Jew who has lost multiple family members to a Hamas terror attack developing bigoted feelings towards Palestinians. I understand that is often a natural reaction for many when they experience such trauma and violence from a group of people they have heard from their media are barbaric since childhood.
Patently untrue, but @fchowd0311 already explained why. I won't spend much time on it, because I don't think you're even arguing in good faith.
I think if you asked him if he supports instances of rape and murder at the music festival, he would answer "no". A lot of these people think Hamas did not plan that, and it happened in the chaos of the operation and due to individuals going rogue. Now, I think that's wishful thinking, that Hamas fighters systematically had zero regard for the lives of Israelis, and that Hamas as an organization should be held responsible for that. But I doubt very much most of these left-wing activists who profess support for Hamas actually support or condone the crimes they are alleged to have (and likely did) commit.
Hamas incursion into a civilian population is in itself a warcrime. Full stop. We don't need anymore fake "autrocity p*rn" narratives of beheaded babies in ovens and mass systemic rape to understand that a violent incursion on a civilian population is wrong. The "autrocity p*rn" fake stories push by the Israeli state is what we call a operation to create manufactured consent for a genocide. You can't genocide because some militants did a violent incursion on a civilian population. You can justify genocide if you try to sell that any form of Palestinian violence is a result of a intrinsic barbarism and lust to rape white Jewish women that is instinsic of the Palestinian population.
I don't believe all the allegations of sexual violence and outright murder are fake. Major war crimes were committed, outside the incursion and hostage taking. “I Can’t Erase All the Blood from My Mind”: Palestinian Armed Groups’ October 7 Assault on Israel | HRW
When a violent incursion of 2000 men happen, there is a high chance of individual rape cases. This applies to any violent incursion of men into a civilian population including American troops in Afghanistan and Iraq. But the claims of systemic rape practices are from one nyt "journalist" who tried to manufacture a story of systemic rape. Her first foray was to find direct evidence from victims, hospitals, coroners, women's sexual violence shelters in Israel but she couldn't. This literally made her angry and frustrated(we have internal private correspondences leak about her frustration with not being able to find evidence )Then she tried to find that narrative a second time through the use of third party sources like volunteers with zero medical training from right wing organizations that were going through the aftermath using their words at face value that they saw instances of mass rape from examining the bodies. She published her story. The NY Daily podcast was even going to center a episode around the story but had to cancel it because it came out how poorly sourced her conclusions were. This actually created great internal strife between journalists, editors and executives within NYT. There is only one claim of rape that is directly from the victim and that is a hostage after Oct 7th. Israel is also not allowing independent investigation from third parties to examine the claims of systemic rape by Palestinians from the Israeli state.
OK. From the HRW report: Crimes Involving Acts of Sexual and Gender-Based Violence Rape and other severe forms of sexual violence are crimes under international law. Acts of sexual and gender-based violence may also constitute the war crime of outrages upon personal dignity. Human Rights Watch found evidence of acts of sexual and gender-based violence by fighters including forced nudity, and the posting without consent of sexualized images on social media. Human Rights Watch was not able to gather verifiable information through interviews with survivors of or witnesses to rape during the assault on October 7. Human Rights Watch requested access to information on sexual and gender-based violence in the possession of the Israeli government, but this request was not granted. The office of the UN Special Representative of the Secretary-General on Sexual Violence in Conflict visited Israel on the invitation of the government. The team interviewed people who reported witnessing rape and other sexual violence, concluded that there were “reasonable grounds to believe that conflict-related sexual violence occurred during the October 7 attacks in multiple locations across Gaza periphery, including rape and gang rape, in at least three locations.”[5] The UN Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem and Israel (UN Commission of Inquiry) conducted an investigation into crimes including those committed during the October 7 assault. In the commission’s June 2024 report it wrote that it had “documented cases indicative of sexual violence perpetrated against women and men in and around the Nova festival site, as well as the Nahal Oz military outpost and several kibbutzim, including Kfar Aza, Re’im and Nir Oz,”[6] and “found indications that members of the military wing of Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups committed gender-based violence (GBV) in several locations in southern Israel on 7 October.”[7] The extent to which acts of sexual and gender-based violence were committed during the October 7 assault will likely never be fully known: many victims may have been killed; stigma and trauma often deter survivors from reporting; and Israeli security forces and other responders largely did not collect relevant forensic evidence from the attack sites or the recovered bodies.[8] Also, relating to endorsements of Hamas's "narrative": Hamas’s Response to Allegations of Abuse Hamas responded on April 14, 2024 with a nine-page letter that is attached as an annex and cited throughout this report to questions submitted by Human Rights Watch on February 28. The main assertions made in the letter are that: its armed wing, the Qassam Brigades, planned the operation, which it called “Operation Al-Aqsa Flood,” and led the October 7 assault; “Hamas is committed to respecting international and human rights law”; “the Qassam Brigades was clear in directing its members and fighters not to target civilians”; and it has a “military doctrine not to target civilians.” It blamed unaffiliated Palestinians from Gaza, who it said crossed through the breached border opportunistically, for committing some of the abuses: “People rushed out, along with Palestinian groups that were not participating in the military operation, resulting in chaos in the field and, thus, changing the plan to conduct an operation against military targets.” It added that after the initial, planned attack occurred, “the subsequent stage, in which Gaza residents and armed forces rushed in without coordination with Hamas, led to many mistakes.” Several Hamas leaders have spoken publicly about the October 7 assault, including praising the operation overall that day but distancing the group from abuses committed. An English-language document titled “Our Narrative... Operation Al-Aqsa Flood,” issued by the Hamas Media Office on January 21, 2024, states that the attacks only targeted Israeli military sites and fighters avoided harming civilians, and cites chaos on the breached fence areas. Human Rights Watch has found that based on the information presented in this report, the Hamas claim that on October 7 its forces did not seek to harm Israeli civilians is false—rather, it was part of the plan from the outset. Accounts from survivors along with photographs and verified videos from the attacks show Palestinian fighters seeking out civilians and killing them across the attack sites from the first moments that the assault began, indicating that the intentional killing and hostage-taking of civilians was planned and highly coordinated. The right way to combat speech you don't like, like the "Our Narrative ..." document, is to present the evidence of abuses that took place, like what HRW and other human rights organizations have done.
UN special rep did not have access to physical evidence like Independent medical experts examining bodies. They had access to testimony from people selected by a Aparthied state acting out a genocide. That is what we call belviing everything at face value. Testimony from a witness coached by the Israeli government isn't physical evidence. Why can't we just leave it at Hamas did a illegal violent incursion on a civilian population and the leaders of the plan need to be arrest for war crimes? Because we need that additional claims of barbarism to perform a ethnic cleansing. It's manufactured consent.
Most people would be fine with revoking a green card for an Israeli citizen who organized rallies in support of Hamas that endangered public safety. They both deserve a chance to defend their actions.
To me, it is important that Hamas is held accountable for any barbaric acts they committed as part of the violent incursion. Leaving it at "they did something they shouldn't have done" without detailing the nature of the crimes that were committed isn't enough.
Yup. That's what is even more scary. There might be Jewish protestors who are attacked by this administration as there are many young Jewish college students in solidarity with the anti-genocide protests.
