Did the Texans win a championship I'm forgetting about? Not to take either side, but he does have a point.
The point I was making was why question something that worked out so well in hindsight? The Texans believed that Schaub was worth the price they paid for him. That's proven to be true. So what's the issue?
I think you missed his point...the decision with Schaub turned out to be a great decision. It doesnt matter if he was only worth one 2nd round pick at the time or whatever...he was well worth what we paid for him.
the issue, dear ima, is that reeko is the most jaded, pessimistic, negative and blind hating texans "fan" in the world.
what is the deal with everyone fishing?...Pretty soon this thread will morph into steroids use or something.
you got to admit, it was a good saying on v3.0 part. I hate to give ASU players credit, but he's been playing very well indeed.
Great decision? He's played one injury-free year out of three. We've yet to make the playoffs. That's not to say Schaub isn't a good QB.. but we did give up two second round picks and swap our 1st rounders (which only ended up being two spots) to get him. And I think it DOES matter what the player was worth at the time you traded for him. If you think a player has 1st round talent, but is projected to go in the 6th round and you draft him in the 1st -- it doesn't matter if you were right in the end. You could have gotten him several rounds later at a much better deal. Sure, in the end you were right -- but it doesn't necessarily make it the best pick (or in Schaub's case, deal). REEKO's point wasn't that it was a bad trade necessarily -- but that other teams, specifically the Chiefs, were able to land their franchise QB for considerably less. As I said, I think REEKO has a point -- and that isn't meant to be an indictment on Schaub. I don't get the analogy to the Drexler decision -- we won a championship. Of course nobody is going to complain about that. We haven't done **** with Schaub yet, so it isn't anywhere near the same ballpark as the Drexler trade.
My point is - and one which no one has yet come forward with a legitimate rebuttal - is that not all "franchise QBs" are created equal. Schaub was considered a higher-rated QB, at the time of his trade in 2007, than Cassel was in 2009. Maybe not among casual fans, but those who scout and study the game for a living - i.e. those making the decisions.
I didn't mean to inject myself into the debate on one side -- I love Rick Smith, I just thought REEKO had a fair point he was getting killed for. Per your argument: how can you prove that? It seems kind of vague and arbitrary to say that, "Well, you casual fans didn't see it, but those who scout the game and study it all saw it!" I know REEKO thinks Schaub was an unknown, but that isn't true either. I haven't been the most avid NFL follower, but I knew who Matt Schaub was and that he was thought of as a good QB that was stuck in a backup role.
Besides the fact that it actually happened - most evidence points to Rick Smith being a very competent GM, and I don't see him giving an extra second-round pick that he didn't have to give - I've talked to scouts who said they knew this was going to happen when he was in ATL. Schaub was perceived as a better talent than Cassel coming out of college (3rd round vs. 7th), and the tools he had shown at every opportunity in ATL were near top of the line. Cassel taking NE to 11 wins had as much to do with him inheriting a 16-0 squad than it did anything he did - and people know it. As such, he posted a QB rating below 70 - pretty much God awful - in his first year in KC. Fans love to make a big deal out of quarterbacks being "winners" - but generally, scouts and people who analyze football for a living know better than to emphasize team results to judge individuals.
You cant predict injuries...therefore, making your point by saying that Schaub has had one injury free season is silly. The fact of the matter is that the Texans nailed that trade...Matt is a very, very good quarterback. And who says the Chiefs got a franchise quarterback???? The last I checked, the guy had less than a 70 rating, threw for as many INT as TDs, completed an abysmal 55% of his passes, and lost 11 games. There were a lot of people that didnt think Cassel was worth a crap...his one good year was with an incredibly talented team that would mask any shortcomings on his end. At this point, the Chiefs would have been better off saving the draft pick. Also, you cant compare a draft to a trade...the Texans needed a QB at the time and had no leverage with anything. They had a price to pay and it was a decision they had to make...Is Schaub worth the 2 draft picks or not? There was no middle ground there. They couldnt wait around and see if the Falcons would lower their demands. In fact, for all we know, the Falcons' initial demands may have been higher. We have a franchise QB for 2 second round picks...the Chiefs have crap with one 2nd round pick.
I agree about NE making Cassel look better than he was. In the same breath, I think it's also fair to say that the Chiefs made Cassel look worse than he is. In the end, you're right that every 'franchise' QB is different. The Bears gave up two 1st round picks and a 3rd rounder for Cutler. I'd much rather us pull off the Schaub deal than Cutler.
Also, to make another point about Cassel and his year with the Chiefs. To put things in perspective, the year before Cassel came to the seen, Thigpen had the following stats: 76 rating 18 TDs 12 INTs 6.2 yards per attempt (compared to 5.9 for Cassel) Plus, Cassel had better run support last season than Thigpen did the previous year. So basically, the Chiefs took a step back from Thigpen.
You seem to be implying that the Texans overpaid (trade-wise) for Schaub and were dumb for doing so when you compare what the Chiefs gave up to get Cassel, but the bottom line is yea we gave up more to get Schaub than the Chiefs did to get Cassel but I think its pretty safe to say we ended up with the better quarterback. Schaub has been making his case for being just outside of the top tier quarterback grouping
I'm not even sure what you are talking about at this point. You are comparing apples to oranges. Cassel and Schaub were no early draft picks. They were players chosen to be backup quarterbacks. Both were not traded until they had been in the league already for SEVERAL seasons. Both Cassel and Schaub were considered good backups, except Cassel had proven himself as a starter over the length of the season, he would logically have a higher price tag. Comparing backup quarterbacks that emerged later in their careers to #1 overall draft picks doesn't make any sense. I am not going to look through the drafts of teams around the league, I don't think anyone is going to, but as I pointed out earlier, 2007 and 2008 contained 4 players that still key pieces of the team (Jacoby Jones, Zac Diles, Duane Brown, Steve Slaton? 2009 has been his only "great" draft. The others were average. One great draft does not make him a great drafter. No one was saying otherwise. Schaub is a great QB, maybe top 5 in the NFL. We were simply saying that at the time, it seemed like we gave up a lot. We simply said that we would have thought a guy like Matt Cassel would have had a higher price tag considering he was a highly regarded backup QB who proved himself over the course of a season. No one is saying that Cassel is even close to being better. We were saying that considering the history of the two, Cassel should have had a higher price tag. Then the Cat went off on some incoherent tangent.
