Tex Winter Ranks Eric Snow, Tinsley, Bremer, + more ahead of SF!

good lord, you've got to be kidding me, SamFisher. of course they don't. but talent alone does not equal a better player. haven't you ever played a pickup game with a dude that has immense talent, yet lost to another team with a player that utilized his talent *albeit smaller talent* better? who is the better player??

who gets the most out of their talent within the confines of their team?

that is the question that is being addressed, imo.

 

you're telling me that the tex winter - the man that is a coach on the lakers - forgot his conference's starting point guard, yet remembered boston's jr bremer & philly's eric snow? are you nuts?

once again i'll say it:

jr bremer + legit star > steve francis and spectators.



this was not an err of senility.

 

I don't know, that's an apples and oranges debate. I would say that if Francis' 94% in the end amounts to more than Arenas' 96%, I'll glady take the lazy Francis over the hardworking Arenas. I'd rather be good and lazy.

I don't think SF is lazy, btw. Didn't he totally change his lifestyle last offseason to deal with the Meniers disease?

 

that's not "laziness vs. hard work". that's survival. that's fear of extreme pain. that's human instinct. if you've ever suffered through intense migraines (or migraine like symptoms), you understand what i mean. i had an accident about 4 years ago and suffered from migraines ever since. trust me...you do whatever it takes to avoid that kind of feeling.

...

and it's not apples and oranges. you'd take the 94%? that's fine. i say you'll lose more often that not. let's look at other nba players...:

avery johnson vs. moochie norris

who would you rather have?

truthfully speaking, moochie is the more naturally blessed guard "talent wise". yet avery's understaning of the game and what it takes to be a leader and a winner makes him, imo, the hands down choice.

ben wallace vs. michael olowokandi:

who is the "talented" player? olowokandi. who is the harder worker? ben wallace. who knows how best to play within their game? ben wallace. who is best for their team? ben wallace.

tim duncan vs. rasheed wallace:

who is the more talented player? rasheed wallace. who has the "grey matter" and dedication to be the best? tim duncan.

 

I think Tim Duncan and Ben Wallace are more talented than R Wallace and Olowakandi. Ben Wallace can jump pretty high and has Rodman like instincts to know where the ball is going to go, as well as work ethic. Duncan is better at everything than R Wallace. Maybe Wallace's vertical was higher coming out of college, but that doesn't make him more "talented", it means he can jump higher.

Hell, I remmeber Avery Johnson being as fast as moochie too, in his prime. Plus the guy was strong as an ox.

 

Rasheed wallace more talented than Tim Duncan??????? I don't even need to argue that point. That's just a bad example.

 

rasheed wallace has range out to 25 feet, great footwork, great shooting touch, more athleticism, slightly better dribbling ability, and comparable strength. rasheed wallace is, physically speaking, more talented.

SamFisher,

ben wallace is nowhere near what i'd call talented. ben wallace has an unmatched work ethic. there's a reason wallace went undrafted (i believe), while olowokandi was #1 overall. kandi has immense talent with miniscule motivation.

but, heading back to the original topic, you have to do more than look at a players stats or individual ability when assessing who is the better player. you have to look at the total package...including how that players plays within the confines of his team. francis, for all his gaudy numbers and even gaudier abilities, belongs below those players - assuming that's the criteria for this list.

you never addressed my assertion about bremer + pierce being greater than francis + spectators.

 

if rasheed wallace is more talented than duncan, then i don't know what talent means.

 

I agree. Here's another one.

Dan Dickau + legit star > steve francis and spectators...

You see...Dan Dickau knows that he sucks compared to the legit star, so he doesn't really bother doing that much since the legit star can do it better. Therefore, Dan Dickau is better than Steve Francis and should be rated higher on a list that ranks the best point guards in the league.

Your logic is funzy, verse.

My guess to how the phone interview went down.

Magazine Interview Guy: So Tex, who's your favorite point guards?

Tex: John Stockton

Magazine Interview Guy: Ummm...he retired.

Tex: Well, in that case the best is probably Jason Kidd...

*this continues for the next nine selections...*

Magazine Interview Guy: So Tex, any young point guards you see who are on the rise?

Tex: Name some young point guards from last year.

Magazine Interview Guy: Well...there's JR Bremmer from Boston.

Tex: yeah..him.

Magazine Interview Guy: So, moving to the next position.

*repeat same process*

Face it, Tex is almost 80. I got nothing against the guy, but that's old. You don't have to be senile to forget something. This is almost surely a case of Tex just forgetting. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

 

What do you want him to say? That because the Celtics could muster up 44 wins in the least and the Rockets could only get 43 wins in the best, that your assertion must be true.

 

It's possible. And even if it wasn't, he's also old. It's very possible that he doesn't remember players that well.

How can he come up with the likes of Bremer and Snow? Read DCkid's post.

 

ok. old people are dumb, forgetful, senile, and non-rocket fans. now i have it figured out. thanks for the lesson, guys.


...god, can this season please start early?

 

\

You are confusing raw athletic ability with basketball talent. I count basketball talent as being able to shoot, pass, etc.

You think if Ben Wallace was seven feet tall coming out of college, he would have been undrafted; conversely, if Olowokandi was 6-7 coming out of college, you still think he wouldhave been 1 overall?

Francis belongs below Miller, Terry, Arenas? OK

Let's look at the total package: how the players play within the confines of their team. Clearly Francis is bad at this, and clearly Andre Miller is good at this, as is Arenas and Terry and JR Bremer. Yes, this must be true.


Anyway, DCKid said it all as for your assertion.

 

Are you actually disputing the possibility that an 80 year old man may not be as sharp as he used to be? Besides, my other point was that the interview may have been conducted in an informal, conversational fashion, rather than some deeply introspective examination of all the players in the league like you're making it out to be.

 

not really.


dickau + ??? is better than francis + spectators?

give me a name, please.

dickau + SAR? no. they aren't, because francis is more of a franchise player than 'reef is, no matter the supporting cast.

i think what DCKid & others are missing here is that if francis is to be the "franchise", especially as a franchise 2 guard, he has to take on the responsbilities of that. when compared to other "franchise" players, he's not at the top. some of the other combo guards listed ahead of francis are not "franchise players", but damnit, they know it!

if francis is to be the point guard, he has to take on those responsibilities, as well...and we all know he has not improved his pg skills one iota since entering the league.

in francis' case, he has tried to be everything: the franchise combo guard/point guard...and, imo, has failed at both. gaudy stats, yes. maximizing his ability, no.

IMHO, i think as soon as this team becomes 100% yao ming's team, steve will be able to emerge as a great, great player... he's just not good enough between the ears to be "THE MAN". but he's more than good enough to be the second best second option in the entire nba (behind kobe, of course). no shame in that, at all.

 

Much of what was was in the post I've already read before a thousand times. I just totally disagree with your claim that the statement above can be used to rate a player above another. I mean unless I have it wrong, are you still using the above statement to defend Tex's ratings? In that case, anyone who knows they aren't a franchise player should be rated higher than Steve Francis. That's right! Steve Francis should be rated #207 in the NBA.

 

Exactly, this argument is stupid.

 

I think you are on to something here. I hope you are right. I would like nothing more than to see Francis play under control, within a system, and take off. Without the "one on five, highlight reel, playground" mentality, Francis could become a "real" star. With another player or two, then many teams would fear coming to Houston. It could happen.

 

taken individually, yes. francis is a better player than all but 4 or 5 of the guys on both lists. in the confines of doing what he needs to do both fulfill his role and help his team, i can understand the assessment. personally, i could flip flop some of them, and francis may not be in the exact spot tex has him at (non-existant), but i think i can understand a train of thought - a criteria if you will - that could lead to such a ranking.

 

Verse,

I'm not going to go into a bunch of analysis, because I think this argument is silly but I must say that not living up to potential is not enough reason to rank a player ahead of another player.

Hakeem Olajuwon was not a team player in the late eighties, and also not a good passer, and beyond blocking shots, generally didn't make his teamates better. That being said, I would not have taken him behind Robinson, or Ewing. You may argue that Robinson and Ewing also evolved during their careers, but I would argue that Ewing has always been the same player and has always played about as well as to be expected. Just because Ewing was maxing out his potential, would you have taken him in 1991 ahead of Hakeem.

At Arenas's best, he is a darn good player but he still isn't the player Steve Franchise is. The same with Miller, and Mike Bibby, and others. Steve makes his team better by his presence on the court and when he makes better decisions, yes the team will play better. But switching Francis and Arenas, Golden State becomes a better team now with the presence of Francis, and I'm not so sure you could make that claim about Arenas in Houston.

Now, if a player didn't try every night, and didn't give a 100%, no matter how good they are, you could probably replace them with a decent player and get the same results. Randy Moss is no good to Minnesota when he's a malcontent, but if Moss is having problems reading defenses, I bet you would still want him on your team.