You're right, this should be implemented for pro boxing. But we all know that's not going to happen. This fight will be the first and last time you hear anything about olympic style testing in boxing (assuming all this gets settled). Well, I guess it'll happen again when Pac moves up to heavyweight to fight David Tua for the World Title in a couple years.
First off, I'm not the guy trying to claim that moving up from flyweight to welterweight, with the gap from featherweight to WW happening only in the last few years, and being completely unaffected - is the same as moving from LW to WW over the course of 10 plus years. The people saying that are the same ass-clowns spinning Pac's refusal to take a drug test reflects postively upon him. Second, the fact that you have you go back to 1993 amateur level, back when they were in their teens, to find a comparable growth phase sort of underscores how much you are straining. Hell, back in 1993 manny was living in a dumpster weighing 80 or 90 lbs for all we know. So please give it a rest. THe fact of the matter is that the two guys started boxing professionally in 1995 and 96 respectively. If Floyd had put on the same weight that Manny had, in lb terms if not percentage terms, he'd be fighting at Super Middleweight (168) - knocking the **** out of Jermaine Taylor and Carl Froch and Andre Ward and Arthur Abraham. if he put on the same % terms, he'd be at LHW. Yeah. Right. If you find that an improbable scenario, you'd figure out why those of us who follow the sport figure that moving up from 106 to 147 with no ill effects whatsoever is somewhat unusual.
Is this fight happening or not, I'm starting to get sick of all this soap opera drama going around this fight and which thread should I post?
I'm not straining at all. You went back to 1996. Manny was still a teen back then. What is 31- 14? Please give it a rest, you can't compare weight gain of two fighters that simplistically. If Manny was living in a dumpster, then it would make sense that he's put on a lot of weight. I don't see many people who "follow the sport" (I mean real experts, not posters on clutchfans) coming out and questioning Manny's weight gain. I find Mayweather's demands to use the USDA for the testing as somewhat unusual.
I went back to the beginning of their pro careers, to a point where they were roughly the same age, where did you go back to? 3 years before that, amateur level/puberty era. If you can tell me how much Manny weighed back in 1993 then maybe your comparison showing me that Mayweather has moved up the same amount of weight classes from Age 16-32 as Manny has in the last few years may have some validity. It probably won't, because nobody is making the argument that he has been using steroids for 16 years, but only that his rapid rise up in weight classes with seemingly no effects in the last few years is unusual. All I know is that FLoyd is now a WW, formerly a LW, pretty much fighting the same way he did back then. Manny is a bantamweight/flyweight who is suddenly physically overpowering welterweights. If you don't see the difference between the two things then I guess we are at an impasse. Other than to look at the list of boxing weight classes, there's not much else for that I can suggest for you to do to try to understand the difference. Actually since you are trying to compare 1993 vs. unknown i'd say you're doing an even worse job than I am if you use the normal definition of the word "compare" . SO Paulie Malignaggi doesn't follow the sport? The rumors were there in boxing circles before this thread got started, please give it a rest and watch the sport.
Pacquio became a pro in 1995, and he weighed 106. Mayweather weighed 106 in 1993, and he is one year older. So at this point, we are 1 year apart. Go ahead and nitpick. Pacquiao's in ring weight hasn't changed much since 2005. I assume that is far enough back to cover what you think is "unsual weight gain" in the past few years. If you can't understand that, then I'm not sure what else I can post. LOL at using one of Pac's potential opponents. Give us links to these rumors. Or please give it a rest.
Mayweather became a pro in 1995. At 130. That's greater than 106 in case you didn't notice. Right, just junior lightweight to welterweight - just 4 measly weight classes - I mean that happens all the time in boxing. link: http://www.nowboxing.com/2009/11/pa...hat-manny-pacquiao-might-be-on-something/4490 Cintron: http://www.nowboxing.com/archives/4081 They may be wrong, they may be right - I guess if Manny just takes the test he can shut them up for good, won't he? Until then he'll have to hide behind a pretend fear of needles (tattoo and earrings suggest otherwise) and a pretend lawsuit . . . and have people like you on the internet who think bantamweight and middleweight is not a big difference, or who think that people in their early 30's's go through a second puberty.
Mayweather's demand is non-standard, yeah I'll give you that. My answer would be that this is one of the biggest fights in decades, so it's not that out of line to have special requests and stipulations. You can't compare this fight to just your everyday random schmucks that no one watches. I think doing things by Olympic standards is more or less reasonable.
First off, Pacquiao has never refused to take a drug test. Someone (forgot who) in this thread repeatedly keeps saying this, so he needs to be corrected. The issue here is the USADA olympic style testing policy versus the Nevada commission who normally performs the tests. [rquoter] http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/news/story?id=4771718 According to Arum and Pacquiao's trainer, Freddie Roach, the main issue is an assurance that blood testing will be cut off at an agreed-upon point before the fight, specifically a guarantee that there would be no testing in the final few days before the bout; USADA would not guarantee that. Pacquiao agreed to submit to unlimited urine testing. ... "If Mayweather wants the fight, it will be governed by the Nevada State Athletic Commission. They would be prepared to conduct drug tests, including blood and urine tests, before and after the fight," Arum said. "We're 100 percent OK with that as long as it's run by the Nevada commission. They will know enough not to harass the fighters. We're OK with the Nevada commission. Whatever they want, without conditions. We know they're not going to do it the week of the fight. We're prepared to get an agreement on the testing by the commission in writing and do it that way. "The Nevada commission is paid by the state to oversee this sort of thing. They're the governing body. The Nevada commission will not inconvenience a fighter by waking him up in the middle of the night. The other guys [USADA] play games. We'll write down the protocols and let the commission go from there."[/rquoter] In my opinion, Mayweather's reputation as a fight-dodger (allegedly) is my prevailing thought rather than Pacquiao's reputation as a HGH user (allegedly). Hopefully some sort of compromise can be worked out where blood testing is random up until 1-week of the fight as well as post fight to go along with the urine testing. But who knows what Mayweather is thinking; I think he is the one who looks bad in this case. I'm a fight fan first, and I want to see fighters fight, not this drama and controversy. You would think after the 50-50 split was agreed upon, this fight was all but guareteed. Both Mayweather and Pacquiao need to work this out and stop being difficult because everyone in the world wants to see this fight.
http://www.doghouseboxing.com/DHB/Kim122509.htm According to victor conte: He emailed Maxboxing,:'In my opinion, blood testing for the Pacquiao-Mayweather fight is more important for detecting possible blood doping or use of EPO than it is for human growth hormone. Measuring hematocrit levels (percentage of red blood cells to total whole blood volume) is very important. For example, even without a positive urine test for EPO, cyclists are temporarily suspended for two weeks if their hematocrit is greater than 50%. An elevated hematocrit can provide a significant advantage to a fighter by enhancing oxygen uptake and utilization. This would benefit a fighter in training and especially during the later rounds of a fight." Conte does have experience in boxing, having worked with Andre Ward and Eddie Chambers, recently, and back in 2003, during the heyday of BALCO, assisted with Shane Mosley in his usage of illegal P.E.D's in his rematch with Oscar De La Hoya. When asked if Mosley was on EPO for that fight, Conte answered,"Yes, he was." Another factor that is essential is that the tests need to be random in nature. "Otherwise," he explains,"it's what they call 'announced testing' and I've historically called that 'I.Q. testing'. So to apply that to other sports, it would be like showing up to training camp for Major League Baseball and they test you. That's announced testing. You have to be pretty dumb to show up at training camp or at 'announced testing' and test positive. The clearance time of most of these drugs that are out there are well known." He also says that for these substances to be utilized at their maximum efficiency, they must be properly cycled and be out of your system by the time competition begins. "Creams, transdurmals, clear the fastest. Orals, would be next. Water-based drugs- including testosterone- would be next, then the oil-based. So some of these can clear in a matter of hours and days," explained Conte."So if you know when you're going to be tested a week out, you go off the use of oral testosterone, for example, you're going to test negative. So that is really an issue." Accoring to him,"Traditional testing in boxing, it's basically worthless other than the detection of some types of stimulant, before and after a fight." The bottom line is what nasc does is not good enough. Vargas and mosley are cheaters and they got away.
I don't know how anyone can say Pacquiao is on PEDs/HGH if Manny is willing to take blood tests a week up to the fight and immediately following the fight. Mayweather wants random blood tests the week leading up to the fight. Are you guys saying whether is allegedly in Pac-man's system will magically disappear within that week? How does Manny not wanting to do testing the week leading up to the fight makes him a PED/HGH user and/or dodging the fight? I don't know anything about PEDs/HGH so please someone tell me is there a difference from testing up to the week before the fight and immediately after then testing within the week leading to the fight? Will whatever Pacquiao is taking going to disappear in that week?
Because at that point, the fight has already taken place. If Kobe Bryant is found to be on steroids, no one is going to go back and say "Orlando should have won the title". Beyond that, anytime you give people advanced warning of tests, it opens the door to manipulation. What's wrong with random tests? The "it weakens me" excuse doesn't work, given that all sorts of Olympic athletes deal with it all time. I could care less about boxing and have never seen either of these guys fight, but if someone is opposed to Olympic-standard testing, that's never going to look good on that guy. There's simply no credible reason to be against it.
This makes sense. I would like to know (maybe you have knowledge in this area) if hypothetically speaking, can Manny get hgh out of his system in the time frame they are looking at? If the cutoff date can have a compromise, would this make a difference? http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/sports_blog/2009/12/manny-pacquiao-floyd-mayweather-boxing.html Mayweather camp: 'We're OK' with less-stringent drug-testing protocol December 26, 2009 | 6:43 pm The promoter for unbeaten boxer Floyd Mayweather Jr. told The Times today that he'd be willing to compromise on U.S. Anti-Doping Agency policy that would leave Mayweather and his tentatively scheduled March 13 opponent, Manny Pacquiao, subject to a blood test on the eve of their mega-fight. "As long as there's a blood test, as long as there's a urine test and as long as it's random, a [specificied] cutoff date is agreeable to us," Mayweather promoter Richard Schaefer said. "We're saying, 'We're OK,' and we hope Pacquiao [and his promoter and trainer] are OK." Schaefer didn't precisely spell out how the drug testing would be done. He and USADA Chief Executive Travis Tygart have said they don't believe an effective anti-doping policy can be carried out if Pacquiao won't agree to test anytime in the 30-day period before the fight. Schaefer pointed to Pacquiao trainer Freddie Roach's comments to The Times this week that a blood test three days before the bout seems reasonable. Pacquiao first told The Times on Christmas Eve that he planned to sue Mayweather and Schaefer's Golden Boy Promotions for defamation because of their intense public push for testing beyond that required by the Nevada State Athletic Commission. "They're trying to tarnish, damage and destroy the clean reputation of someone who is a fighter, a warrior," Pacquiao advisor and biographer Winchell Campos told The Times on Saturday. "Manny has said he fights for his country, his honor and his God, and he'd never do anything to disgrace any of those." That said, Campos said Pacquiao is willing to consider any direction from the Nevada State Athletic Commission. If Nevada authorities agree that additional blood testing beyond their urine collection is appropriate for this high-profile bout that could be the most lucrative in history, "then that's fair," Campos said. "But nobody should be dictating those things to the commission." Schaefer said he's "never accused Pacquiao of doing something illegal" and said as a promoter who has more than 20% of Pacquiao's rights, "the last thing I'd want is to see him accused or be found guilty of using steroids." Schaefer said he strongly wants the fighters to come together and agree to drug-testing terms. "Now that I've learned more about this, boxing now will have an outspoken advocate for blood testing in the sport," Schaefer said. "I plan to ask Nevada to have Travis Tygart explain why blood tests are necessary. This is not about hitting a baseball, throwing a football or hitting a puck. This is a sport that's mano-a-mano, with guys hitting each other's heads. It's important that the strongest testing possible is in place." -- Lance Pugmire
Of course it doesn't look good to people that don't know all the facts. Usually, don't you need evidence to accuse somebody of anything? The only "evidence" they have is Manny dominating opponents that everybody thought he couldn't beat. Wow. That's all? No leaked list with his name on a Balco list? No empty prescription bottles? He surely must have failed the state required test right? Nope. Passed every single one of them. But somehow, those test are no longer legitimate even though Nevada has been running that system for 10+ years? Yeah, let's transfer those accusations into another line of work and see how it plays out.
No. You need evidence to convict people of something. Accusations don't require anything of the sort, really. They simply affect the court of public opinion, which isn't and has never been evidence based. Plenty of people think Mark McGwire was on steroids despite the lack of evidence supporting this, for example.
That's a fairly different situation, though. I would expect it possible to strip someone of a belt/victory in boxing and it is a one-on-one sport, therefore a little easier to point to the direct outcome of cheating. I do understand the logic, though. What about the week of? I don't know enough to know when these drugs can 'show up' or be effective/out of a system; this is an honest question. I can see the desire to not be tested the 'day of', particularly for a boxer, however.
Right here straight from your hero's own mouth: http://www.skysports.com/video/inline/0,26691,13273_5700132,00.html 2:26 mark: "Manny Pacquiao was 16 when he weighed 106, just like me, when I was 16, I was fighting at 106." 11:04 mark: "Manny Pacquiao weighed 106 when he was 16, just like Floyd Mayweather weighed 106 when he was 16." No apology necessary.
This. People should really understand weigh-in weight vs. fight-night weight before trying to respond. In 2005, Pacquiao was fighting at JLW, true. But tell me, what was his fight-night weight for his fights that year? Here let me help you out: 139 lbs for El Terrible and 140 lbs for Velazquez. In 2009, what was Pacquiao's fight-night weight against Cotto? Here let me help you out again: 149 lbs. Let's see. 149 - 139 = 10 lbs of "true" weight gained over 4 years.
