Terrorists Seize Russian School

Islam, obviously... they have been brainwashed that their "brothers in islam" needed help, and like good "muslims" they went to their aid...

I mean I personally dont consider an terrorist, or anyone that commits a crime as such as a MUSLIM, they may do stuff in the name of a religion, but religion bans such actions..

 

Isn't that why the modifier "radical" is applied?

 

but still the religion still doesnt ask them to kill children, even the radical ones.

 

It would be promising if Allah ever spoke against war, period.

 

But they did, regardless of what their religion says.

 

I think everyone can agree that these people did one of the worst imaginable things that can be done. I know that a lot of people do things in the name of Christianity that I absolutely hate. I don't doubt that many do the same in the name of Islam that other Muslims hate.

Trying to sit back and make a connection to the actions of men, and the principles of religion in an effort to say 'gotcha!' doesn't help anyone. It doesn't serve the purpose of the religion that was 'zapped' nor the religion of the people who did the zapping.

 

We are not making the connection. The terrorists are making the connection. Trying to sugarcoat the fact that the vast majority (not all of them, but too many) of major terrorist acts in the world during the last few years has been committed in the name of Islam and/or by islamic extremists does not help anyone either.

 

http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/story.jsp?story=558134

Excerpt from the article:

[In the hospital morgue yesterday afternoon, a grief-stricken man clutched his dead son's hand, unable to cry any more, while three women collapsed on their knees when they found the little boy they were looking for. The boy's grandmother nervously pulled back the white sheet to reveal his bomb-blasted body, the flesh lacerated and hanging off in places. His mother screamed, beating the ground with her fists.

Strangled, tear-choked refrains of "Oh my God" echoed everywhere as those who had lost loved ones vented grief.

"Vladislav", screamed one woman repeatedly as she staggered around on the grass. "I'm going to go mad. They should have killed me instead."

Several women collapsed in shock and needed treatment when they discovered the worst by consulting hastily printed sheets listing the dead and living. Most simply cried until there were no more tears.

Sitting on a bench surrounded by hundreds of weeping people, Bela could not stop sobbing after finding the body of Regina, her 14-year-old niece, in the hospital. "Poor little girl. Her mother doesn't even know she is dead yet because she is still in the hospital searching for another child. I'd already told her that Regina was safe. What am I going to tell her now?

"They killed her," she intoned repeatedly, overwrought with shock and grief.

"It was definitely her. I could tell by the eyes."

A few metres away, a man called Goram stared listlessly into the middle distance as he said that his eight-year-old niece was still unaccounted for.]

 

Horrible.

 

I'm not saying that Radical Islamists aren't responsible for much world wide terrorism. That doesn't change the fact that the acts are carried out from men, and by most people's reckoning against the values of the religion these people claim to be serving.

Once we all realize that these radical terrorists claim Islam as their religion, what do we get? Does it change the original text and the five pillars of wisdom etc? It doesn't get us anywhere. It impunes these men, but it doesn't change the basic ideals behind Islam.

 

Then Islam - its clerics and followers around the world - needs to do its part to scream to the world and say "this is not what our religion stands for" - I realize there are some such statements. But there were too many Muslims around the world coming up with explanations and excuses for 9/11 and the terrorist acts which followed. Even Sane, who says these are horrible acts, still uses the rhetoric of those guys "having had a just cause"..."what if you had been oppressed all your life"..."it doesn't matter that the hijackers were not from Palestine because all Muslims are brothers". That's messed up. It's not just a few freaks doing things in the name of Islam.

I see too many excuses and qualifiers from this religion's followers - many will say "yes, they went too far, BUT..." and that is just not acceptable.

I am not attacking the basic ideals of Islam. I am attacking those who commit those acts and those who openly or secretly sympathize at least partly with their acts or who make any kind of excuse or try to explain why at least, these people would have had a cause or whatever.

And yes, I am saying that the root cause of why people can continue to commit these atrocious acts and claim they are done in the name of Islam is associated to the way this religion is taught and practiced in many places. I have had friends see Muslims in Denmark and Germany dance in the streets and celebrate after 9/11, I have seen the TV reports from some Arab countries with the same pictures. I have first-hand information that there are mosques in Germany (tolerated and even partly sponsored by the German government, ironically) where incitement of hate against the "non-believers" takes place. It's not just a few terrorists, those terrorists do have a backing by radical and extremist groups within Islamic institutions around the world.

 

The moderate Muslims have published books, signed petitions, spoken out against this stuff again and again. Many of the terrorists captured were turned in by these moderate muslims who found out what was going on.

Those that say they aren't speaking out against it aren't listening when they do.

I think what some people have said is that the Chechen rebels do have a just cause. Not that any cause justifies doing this to school children. One can have a just a cause and still act horribly as we've seen.

As far as saying yes that's wrong but... Why shouldn't people do that? Why not say yes the terrorists are wrong, but... and then bring up a legitimate concern? Because radicals use a just cause to create terrorism does that mean that moderates are no longer aloud to speak out about the legitimate issues?

 

Then you aren't listening. I've posted book titles in this bbs that talk about exactly that. They were written by moderate muslims.

I do agree that they need one person with charisma and leadership that can make these same claims and get enough press, but because they don't have that doesn't mean that they aren't speaking out against it.

 

Sadly, I see more "yes that's wrong but" from so-called moderate Muslims than "that's wrong", period. As long as I keep seeing "yes that's wrong but", I see some type of an association there.

If some Rockets fan goes and shoots 20 Lakers fans, I am not going to comment "well, that's wrong, but the Lakers still suck, so it was a just cause, that guy just went overboard". If I comment, I will say that I am ashamed to be a Rockets fan on that day, and there cannot be ANY justification for what the guy did.

But that's what I see behind a lot of reactions from Muslims around the world - they say "yes, but" and even worse than that, I see some of them just flat-out justify these acts. For some reason, almost all taxi drivers in Germany seem to be Muslims from Iran or other countries, and sometimes, they force political discussions on me. I once had this guy drive me by a bank and he started this hate-filled rant against jews because supposedly, jews had all the money and were the source of all evil. I told him to please not continue with that discussion. That has happened to me more than once. I also had a situation where one of those cab drivers started a hate-filled rant against the US.

 

Much respect to those people. I have seen the posts you made with those links. I just think it's not enough.

Plus, some distancing remarks from some leaders appear more tactical than representing their true feelings to me. In some cases, it's as credible to me as the Heri Batasuna (political arm of the ETA) "distancing" itself from ETA's terrorist acts when it is clear that they are associated with them. Some Islamic clerics preach hate against the USA, jews and the western world in general and then, when people act according to those words and go and kill people, those guys try to pretend they have nothing to do with it.

 

The logic failure lies in that you don't have the same conditions all over the world, therefore you cannot lay this at the feet of the religion without substantial analysis.

If more Christians felt like they deserved independence like the Basque or the Northern Irish, would there have been widespread terrorism by Christians, causing people to question the Christian faiths? Was it not a Christian Serbia that sought to eradicate Bosnian and Croatian Muslims through genocide (which is a pretty damn severe form of terrorism)? Which faith(s) is responsible for the massacres in Africa? Which faith has kids that shoot up their own schools? Drive bys?

The answer: none. It's just sick people folks. They come in all shapes, sizes, colors, ethnicities, nationalities, genders, religions, etc. Now I'm not claiming that religions are not a factor. It's possible that one religion might be more prone to radicals ... once extenuating circumstances are present. But you have to analyze those extenuating circumstances. Religions are just one of many variables.

Further, condemning the religion overall is offensive and unfair to the folks who practice their religion properly. Those people have done no wrong and have no responsibility for the actions of the terrorists. Would any of you like to defend the Serbia's actions? The IRA's? ETA's? Koresh's? Or even all of the actions of the US or Israel?