how sad it must be to be living in such fear being scared , especially of Arabs is a natural reaction to the 9/11, but we, as a modern society, must fight to prevent ourselves from falling victim to our fears as FDR said, the only thing we have to fear is fear itself many of the hijackers were flagged when they checked in many of the hijackers set off the metal alarms we have the failsafes in place, we only failed to head the warnings there is no need to racial profiling, not in America, not ever
Searching absolutely everyone at the airport is cool with me, even the 82 year old senile white woman...You can't discount the possibilities, but with that said, you have to profile when targeting individuals as it relates to possible terror, because the vast majority of terrorists are of origin from the middle-eastern area...It doesn't mean there aren't other ethnicities that can be discounted as it relates to terror, but the target majority of who we are enacting tactics against are the middle-eastern... I want to clarify what I posted earlier, because I think the meaning could be misinterpreted, and that is profiling in crime...I am against the police profiling as it relates to typical crime... The War on Terror is obviously a crime, but it isn't typical,...It is an absolute war engagement against the security of our Nation overall...and that is the distinction I feel justified in stating profiling must be used as a tactic by counter-terrorists...As we all know targeting individuals is not done soley at the airport...Anti-terror organizations such as the Dept. of Homeland Defense have close door think-sessions, computers, and various surveilance equipment which help in the target and monitoring process against potential terrorists... As I said, profiling should be, and must be an effective part of the process, but not just that...Strong checkmarks absolutely need to include suspicious actions regardless of ethnic background...
If our only defense is to randomly interrogate guys named Ahmad as they try to board a place, our country is in more danger than I originally thought. That is a very poor way to screen for airline security, and I hope that the feds have a better heads up than that.
But I do fear profiling can lead to such. It's a road we should not travel down. It might be too hard to come back.
BTW T_J you are clearly in the minority here in America when it comes to torture. Why do you hate America so much? --------------------------------- Poll: Americans Against Using Torture WASHINGTON - Two-thirds of Americans believe the United States should never use physical torture of people it detains, according to a poll on attitudes about prisoner abuse. A majority, 55 percent, said this country should never use mental torture — such as making someone think that they or their family will be killed, according to the poll by the Program on International Policy Attitudes at the University of Maryland. Four of five supported the rights of someone detained to have a hearing where they can answer the charges against them. About that many said detainees should have the right to contact a family member and nine in 10 said the Red Cross should be able to visit people in detention to make sure they are treated properly, according to the poll conducted by Knowledge Networks. Six in 10 said that people captured who are not conventional soldiers should still be accorded the rights provided by treaties. Such treaties spell out the rights of prisoners of war. Two-thirds believe the United States president should not have the right to override constitutional requirements that all people in detention should be given a hearing. Three-fourths agreed with the statement that the United States is a moral leader in the world and should not set a bad example by torturing or degrading people in detention. An overwhelming majority opposed the use of dogs to intimidate prisoners, making prisoners stay naked, holding prisoners heads under water for extended periods of time and sexually humiliating prisoners. http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...3&e=9&u=/ap/20040723/ap_on_go_ot/torture_poll
Liberals, since you are unwilling to answer my questions, I will give you a different question: Why should we *exclude* race from how we target suspects in the War on Terror?
If you trust the military over the lawmakers elected by the citizens of our country, you hate America and its values.
Don't discount Oklahoma City. It was not random. There are militia groups in the USA which feel the government is evil and are fighting/preparing for a war against it.
I'm not scared of arabs, but arabs on a plane, I'm more alert, and in my mind will start to prepare for possible danger and scenarios to save lives. I'm not quite sure thats fear, if it is, its a good fear. After 9/11, seeing arab men on airplanes, that's just not a desirable situation to be in. When Americans see arabs on planes its understandable that they naturally sense danger. Its something that has entered into Americans conscience these days, like the natural sense of knowing that a snake is dangerous. Its not right or wrong. Its just they way it is. They way we should be or how we should feel, or what a man lying in his grave thinks, doesn't really matter to me. The fact is that Arabs on planes sends danger signals off in an Americans head. Its just a fact. Its not like American men are running around like a bunch of scared chickens at airports because they spot a group of middle eastern men. But out of concern for the persons life next to them, the women and children boarding the plane, we have a duty to be aware of a possible dangerous situation. And we have a duty as American men to never let 9/11 happen again. No matter how many hijackers, no matter how much phony terror they try to spread because of their own fears that eat at their souls every moment, it will never be enough to overcome a plane of souls who share a remembrance of 9/11 and a common determination to never let it happen again.
So is putting a square peg in a square "hole" rather than a round one. Sometimes simple is the best way to go.
Yeah. Like a black man wearing baggy clothes on the street. Like a white man in a pickup truck with a Confederate flag. It's funny how in one instance, people will call it vigilance, while in another it'll be unjustified stereotyping.
I don't know these people who you're talking about. I can only speak for myself. Upon seeing a white man in a pickup with a confederate flag, I think, redneck, hick, could be cool guy, what's up or howdy partner, but I don't feel he wants to hijack planes to kill Americans. Upon seeing a black dude walking down the street in baggy clothes, I would probably think, hip hop dude, whats up man or dog, but I wouldn't feel he wants to hijack planes to kill Americans. No alert signal goes off in my mind in either of those particular situations. Now Arabs getting on planes - beep, beep, beep, beep, all systems alert, all systems on full alert. That's just the way it is. If your Arab and a good man then it will only take me a few moments to realize it and we'll be cool and have a pleasant flight.
Just so we're clear, I'm not really arguing with the "alert signal". However, to act as if profiling Arabs is not the same thing as when dealing with the two scenarios I mentioned is silly. All three are cases where harm can come to the person making the observation if the situation is right. You mean to tell me you have never ever heard those two stereotypes used by someone to describe a feeling of worry and concern for themselves? Again, my point is simply that it is stereotyping to consider Arabs a flight risk. If policies are made that center on this, it'll make them feel uncomfortable and unfairly accused. You have to have additional policies that alleviate the situation. I believe Chris Rock says that he was a born a suspect. Arabs and anyone of brown skin can now say the same thing. That's un-American, and that's why I hate it.
Yeah, it is stereotyping. I understand you. But right now it's only Arabs in airports that give me concern. But right now, the Arab at the liqour store, hell of a guy. The Arab at the gas station, thats my man. The Arab I see in the market, no problem there, whats up man, how 'bout them Rockets. It's just the Arabs on the planes that I'm stereotyping right now. There has to be a better word for it than stereotyping. we need to let go of that word. Its just not a good word for the particular circumstances we are talking about. You call it stereotyping I call it common sense and vigilance considering the situation we're in after 9/11. Now lets take a man walking down the street, and he sees a black man coming his way in baggy clothes, or a confedarete looking hick chewing dip leaning up against a post he has to walk by, and he feels a possible threat, and he has never had a bad experience with a black man in baggy clothes or a confederate looking redneck, but yet he feels uncomfortable anyways because the way they look or what he's heard, than that is stereotyping I guess. Now if this same guy has had a bad experience in the past with a confederate looking redneck or a black dude in baggy clothes, and he is in the same situation and his mind tells him to be on alert and ready, I would call that being vigilant and using common sense. September 11th 2001, every American had a life lasting negative experience with Arabs boarding airplanes that day, so to be aware of them, and extra cautious of them, while in airports, that to me, is to be vigilant.
Originally posted by Texas Stoke **Yeah, it is stereotyping. I understand you. But right now it's only Arabs in airports that give me concern.** Then why not the thuggish black guy on the street corner? Or the redneck who's ready to handle you "Deliverance" style? **But right now, the Arab at the liqour store, hell of a guy. The Arab at the gas station, thats my man. The Arab I see in the market, no problem there, whats up man, how 'bout them Rockets. It's just the Arabs on the planes that I'm stereotyping right now.** It's nice to know that you approve of the existence of Arabs as long as they don't fit into your fear of them 30,000 feet in the air. **There has to be a better word for it than stereotyping. we need to let go of that word. Its just not a good word for the particular circumstances we are talking about.** Why isn't it a good word? Because you're being forced to confront your prejudices and realize that what you are doing is stereotyping? It's the perfect word for these circumstances. According to Dictionary.com, a stereotype is "A conventional, formulaic, and oversimplified conception, opinion, or image. " You know, like assuming that all Arabs on flights are going to kill you. **You call it stereotyping I call it common sense and vigilance considering the situation we're in after 9/11.** What situation? We were merely forced to deal with an incident that the rest of the world lives with every day. All of a sudden, it's of monumental importance, to the point where the freedoms of Americans are neglected and trampled, and the economy and true government takes a backseat to the paranoid notion that Arabs are all out to kill you? **Now lets take a man walking down the street, and he sees a black man coming his way in baggy clothes, or a confedarete looking hick chewing dip leaning up against a post he has to walk by, and he feels a possible threat, and he has never had a bad experience with a black man in baggy clothes or a confederate looking redneck, but yet he feels uncomfortable anyways because the way they look or what he's heard, than that is stereotyping I guess.** Yes it is. And it's exactly what you're doing. **Now if this same guy has had a bad experience in the past with a confederate looking redneck or a black dude in baggy clothes, and he is in the same situation and his mind tells him to be on alert and ready, I would call that being vigilant and using common sense. September 11th 2001, every American had a life lasting negative experience with Arabs boarding airplanes that day, so to be aware of them, and extra cautious of them, while in airports, that to me, is to be vigilant.** Let me ask you something. How many airplanes have you been on, and had them hijacked by Arabs? I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess a big, fat "zero". You claim that for someone to fear a certain idea of a person based on nothing but second-hand claims (what they've "heard") is stereotyping, but you shy away from the idea that fearing Arabs because they hijacked someone else's plane and killed people is stereotyping. Unless you have had some bad personal experience where an Arab gave you reason to believe that he and people like him were a constant threat to your airline travel, I think you should admit that your views are bigoted and racist.
Ender120 - It's nice to know that you approve of the existence of Arabs as long as they don't fit into your fear of them 30,000 feet in the air. As long as there not in large groups on a single plane, and heading to the toilet every 5 seconds. And as long as they don't give eachother funny stares and secretly converse in Arabic on the plane. Thats a no no right there, I may have to rush them. Ender120 - Why isn't it a good word? Because you're being forced to confront your prejudices and realize that what you are doing is stereotyping? It's the perfect word for these circumstances. According to Dictionary.com, a stereotype is "A conventional, formulaic, and oversimplified conception, opinion, or image. " You know, like assuming that all Arabs on flights are going to kill you. First off I don't care much for my life as much as I do for the person next to me. But hey, with my stereotyping(i'll run that word into the grave), just a very weak principled man it seems, but theres a big difference between my stereotyping than the Arab terrorists stereotyping. My stereotyping just hurts sensitive mens feelings. Their stereoytping, leads them to look at all American citizens as people who they need to kill. My stereotyping while hurting mens feelings saves people lives, while theirs intends to kill people. What situation? We were merely forced to deal with an incident that the rest of the world lives with every day. All of a sudden, it's of monumental importance, to the point where the freedoms of Americans are neglected and trampled, and the economy and true government takes a backseat to the paranoid notion that Arabs are all out to kill you? No, you're merely. I'm not merely ****. I think about it all the time. The flight. The firefighters, the policeman, the innocent women and children on the flight, the people jumping out of the building. Is it such a hit on our freedoms, if an Arab is on a flight, our mental antenna goes up, that our juices may flow a little more and we are aware of a possible threat on board? we're not rude or cruel to arab men on the plane, nobodys going to throw nuts at him and jeer at him and chant God is Great down with the damn Arab. You feel a sense of equal rights for all Americans, I do to, thats what any war I run to fight in will have to be about, and damn me to hell if thats what Im saying to take away, because I'm not. I'm saying arabs on airplanes cause Americans to be more alert. And dammit theres nothing wrong with that right now. If you're arab and you don't like that, here's a tissue. Ender - "Yes it is. And it's exactly what you're doing" we're not understanding eachother here. its me, Im not the greatest communicator. See, I want you to feel what I felt on 9/11 and what I still feel and think about. That year I had dreams of the flight, and children screaming, right before it hit the building. I have an audiotape on the comp. of a young man, about my age, trapped on the top floor of the world trade center, who called his girlfriend, left a message on the recorder, telling her he's sorry they have been fighting, and that he loves her, and that a plane just slammed into the building and he's not going to make it, and then nothing but static. See I replay that call in my head a lot. It has effected me more deeply than you. And your out here pushing for the cause that Arabs on airplanes to be thought of, to be thought of, by American citizens as what, what do you want us to think or not think, that Arabs on airplanes not be thought as possible threats, thats not going to happen for awhile, even Thomas Paine would have a hard time with that one. Ender101 - Let me ask you something. How many airplanes have you been on, and had them hijacked by Arabs? I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess a big, fat "zero". You claim that for someone to fear a certain idea of a person based on nothing but second-hand claims (what they've "heard") is stereotyping, but you shy away from the idea that fearing Arabs because they hijacked someone else's plane and killed people is stereotyping. Unless you have had some bad personal experience where an Arab gave you reason to believe that he and people like him were a constant threat to your airline travel, I think you should admit that your views are bigoted and racist. Here is where you and me most differ. It wasn't someone elses plane. And it wasn't some people. It was my innocent fellow country men, women, and children. they were killed because we don't think like they think, we don't worship the god they worship, we don't look they way they look, and on and on with the their forced doctrine for the world that was made in hell. These cowards are the bigots, these are the racists. I will never forget it. It was a experience for me that I will never forget, and if I do ever forget, while living on earth, god help me.
- Name me one intel setback due to our halting torture such as what occurred at Abu Ghraib prison. - It's not a liberal talking point. The information comes from military intel officers, CIA personell, etc. as seen on countless news shows. - Life isn't fair but your wrong in saying we shouldn't bend over backwards to make it fair. We should bend over backwards to make it fair, because when people do that we live in a better world. I recently listened to a supervisor of military interrogations in Afghanistan. He was interviewed on NPR. He believed that some interrogation techniques that cross the line are more beneficial. But he said that at his prison, they made a concious effort to treat all prisoners by the standards in the Geneva convention. At the end of the day they did a great job questioning the prisoners and didn't use torture. He did say that early on they weren't able to break some of the prisoners but that they soon adopted the techniques they were using, and manage to get loads of info and never used torture. Doing the right thing can be done, and be effective. As for your question about incorrectly profiling a certain group, it's not a choice we are faced with. We don't have to profile all middle easterners or let them all in unchecked. It's a question based on an unrealistic premise. It's better to check everyone. Look at passports and where folks travelled and then be more stringent with people who spent time in nations that deal more with terrorism.
