There really is no reaching those who believe and those who don't. Time, U.S. News, and every major newspaper in America is now printing stories how the 9/11 commission is being stonewalled (they're trying to be delicate about using the word "stonewall"). But will conservatives believe that GWB's administration ignored evidence that...well, you finish the sentence. The document "Rebuilding America's Defenses", the neo-con wet dream Bible (find it on the Internet) spells out what they wanted, and what Bush is giving them. Find it on the Internet. Go after Iraq, Syria, North Korea, Iran. China. WRITTEN 10 YEARS AGO. One of the contributors? Paul Wolfowitz. Time Magazine reported that Bush stepped in on a meeting (in early 2002!) between Condoleeza Rice and two Republican congressmen. "F*** Saddam. We're taking him out." So Bush lying to get the public behind him to go after Saddam? Of course. Of course.
You asked if I thought it was "perfectly" okay which to my mind insinuated that I, at least, think it is okay. I'm afraid that most people in elective leadership have to lie some of the time. It's just the nature of trying to appeal to as many people as possible so as to protect your political future. For example, every policy decision made by any administration is buffeted by citing some study somewhere that purports to demonstrate the justification for the policy decision. Surely that same administration is aware of other studies that conclude exactly the opposite-- which would/could have led to polar policy decisions. Is this lying, too? Maybe yes. Maybe no.
http://www.state.gov/p/nea/rls/19675.htm More lies from the White House... Fact Sheet Office of the White House Press Secretary Washington, DC April 4, 2003 Life Under Saddam Hussein: Past Repression and Atrocities by Saddam Hussein's Regime For over 20 years, the greatest threat to Iraqis has been Saddam Hussein's regime -- he has killed, tortured, raped, and terrorized the Iraqi people and his neighbors for over two decades. When Iraq is free, past crimes against humanity and war crimes committed against Iraqis, will be accounted for, in a post-conflict Iraqi-led process. The United States, members of the coalition, and the international community will work with the Iraqi people to build a strong and credible judicial process to address these abuses. Under Saddam's regime many hundreds of thousands of people have died as a result of his actions, the vast majority of them Muslims. According to a 2001 Amnesty International report, "victims of torture in Iraq are subjected to a wide range of forms of torture, including the gouging out of eyes, severe beatings, and electric shocks ... some victims have died as a result and many have been left with permanent physical and psychological damage." Saddam has had approximately 40 of his own relatives murdered. Allegations of prostitution are used to intimidate opponents of the regime and have been used by the regime to justify the barbaric beheading of women. There have been documented chemical attacks by the regime, from 1983 to 1988, resulting in some 30,000 Iraqi and Iranian deaths. Human Rights Watch estimates that Saddam's 1987-1988 campaign of terror against the Kurds killed at least 50,000 and possibly as many as 100,000 Kurds. The Iraqi regime used chemical agents to include mustard gas and nerve agents in attacks against at least 40 Kurdish villages between 1987-1988. The largest was the attack on Halabja which resulted in approximately 5,000 deaths. o 2,000 Kurdish villages were destroyed during the campaign of terror. Iraq's 13 million Shi'a Muslims, the majority of Iraq's population of approximately 22 million, face severe restrictions on their religious practice, including a ban on communal Friday prayer, and restriction on funeral processions. According to Human Rights Watch, "senior Arab diplomats told the London-based Arabic daily newspaper al-Hayat in October [1991] that Iraqi leaders were privately acknowledging that 250,000 people were killed during the uprisings, with most of the casualties in the south." Refugees International reports that "Oppressive government policies have led to the internal displacement of 900,000 Iraqis, primarily Kurds who have fled to the north to escape Saddam Hussein's Arabization campaigns (which involve forcing Kurds to renounce their Kurdish identity or lose their property) and Marsh Arabs, who fled the government's campaign to dry up the southern marshes for agricultural use. More than 200,000 Iraqis continue to live as refugees in Iran." In 2002, the U.S. Committee for Refugees estimated that nearly 100,000 Kurds, Assyrians, and Turkomans had previously been expelled, by the regime, from the "central-government-controlled Kirkuk and surrounding districts in the oil-rich region bordering the Kurdish controlled north." "Over the past five years, 400,000 Iraqi children under the age of five died of malnutrition and disease, preventively, but died because of the nature of the regime under which they are living." (Prime Minister Tony Blair, March 27, 2003) Under the oil-for-food program, the international community sought to make available to the Iraqi people adequate supplies of food and medicine, but the regime blocked sufficient access for international workers to ensure proper distribution of these supplies. Since the beginning of Operation Iraqi Freedom, coalition forces have discovered military warehouses filled with food supplies meant for the Iraqi people that had been diverted by Iraqi military forces. The Iraqi regime has repeatedly refused visits by human rights monitors. From 1992 until 2002, Saddam prevented the UN Special Rapporteur from visiting Iraq. The UN Special Rapporteur's September 2001, report criticized the regime for "the sheer number of executions," the number of "extrajudicial executions on political grounds," and "the absence of a due process of the law." Saddam Hussein's regime has carried out frequent summary executions, including: 4,000 prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison in 1984; 3,000 prisoners at the Mahjar prison from 1993-1998; 2,500 prisoners were executed between 1997-1999 in a "prison cleansing campaign;" 122 political prisoners were executed at Abu Ghraib prison in February/March 2000; 23 political prisoners were executed at Abu Ghraib prison in October 2001; and At least 130 Iraqi women were beheaded between June 2000 and April 2001.
Generally policies are formulated considering both the cost and the benefit. Is this a good policy? Well, some Iraqis got killed and some Americans got killed. That is not good. Many many more Iraqis, and potentially Americans will not be killed. Nothing to retch over. What a joke. Those were also backed by the rest of the UN, and ultimately were UN sanctions, not US. Also sanctions are one of the main non-military leverages in international relations. If you rule out sanctions you can hardly then go and say that containment was working/good policy and we should have just continued that. You and many of the anti-crowd are arguing that the UN non-military approach was not working as it was supposed/that is was bad, and that the US is bad for not letting UN action work. Very funny. All the while crowing about the UN and castigating the US.
Just because one is wrong doesn't mean the other is right. The sanctions were terrible, as was the recent "war."
There are only so many options, one of which is to do nothing and completely ignore the problem, but that is not the option most people would feel is the right one.
in the process of discovery, nearly anything is fair game. what you're talking about is a "material" fact. a lawyer in a suit by an employee/underling of clinton is going to be looking for others who were put in the same situation by clinton...other situations where the relationship changed from being professional to sexual. it's evidence of a pattern. he knew it, and so he lied about it. perjury. there are cases where the exact same fact scenarios lay out and people did actual jail time. many of those people were called on to testify before congress during the impeachment hearings.
I agree 100-percent. It just saddens me that such decisions are made with little regard to the people they're meant to protect.
1. Saddam Hussein killed about 50,000 Iraqis per annum that we know of. 2. Saddam Hussein was a destabalizing influence in the region. 3. The Baath regime sponsored terrorism. 4. Saddam provided no credible evidence that all of his NBC weapons were destroyed. 1. See the report posted by giddyup. It could possibly be debated that it was UN sanctions, not Saddam, that caused the deaths, although the fact that food was made available to them and that sanctions would be lifted by Saddam merely cooperating with the cease fire agreement he committed to pretty easily counters that argument. This article from the NYT covers some of the other Iraqis killed under Saddam. 2. Saddam invaded 2 of his neighbors and launched missiles at Isreal, a nuclear armed nation. I don't feel like gathering the links, but you probably saw this on CNN in the '80s and '90s. 3. Saddam pays the families of suicide bombers in Palestine/Isreal a large sum of money (about $25,000). This has been reported in many media outlets. There is a brief mention of it by Colin Powell here. 4. I can't prove a negative, but if I am provided with any credible document that proves the complete dismantling of all of Iraq's WMD programs (something not even provided to the President or the UN) I will gladly concede this point. Achebe, Since you seem to feel that the likelyhood of Iraq having seaworthy boats or the ability to smuggle a UAV into Mexico is on par with your grandma having testicles, perhaps it is not my arguments that are unsound.
Ten Appalling Lies Told to George W. Bush by the Evil Neocon Star Chamber 1. Yes, you can "drive the helicopter" (sic) whenever you want. 2. We will remove the microchip from your cortex if you are good for the first year of your presidency. 3. All muslims will love you after we conquer Iraq. 4. France and Germany used to be part of one big whiny country, in, like, the 16th century or something. 5. No, your wife is not one of our top secret killer robots. 6. Yes, you will be able to personally launch some of the cruise missiles at Iraq. 7. It is against article 739.j of the constitution for presidents to have press conferences. 8. No, no, Mr. Cheney likes you just fine. He hides in his undisclosed location because its safer this way. 9. The diplomats are resigning because their 401K plans are reaching new heights after your stimulus plan. 10. You will have summers off to watch baseball.
Bush took the Oath of Office. Bush lied in the State of the Union Address. The State of the Union is one of the few Presidential duties mentioned in the Constitution. So, Bush lied under oath performing a Constitutional duty.
wow...that's interesting...but essentially that would mean that ANY lie told by a president during the course of his duties would be an impeachable offense.
rimrocker, you need to back away from those flames... I think Bush's oath was about allegiance to his country. You don't know, still, that he did lie-- only that what he said might not have been true.
Dear BBS friends, The President took the nation to war based on his assertion that Iraq posed an imminent threat to our country. Now the evidence that backed that assertion is falling apart. If the Bush administration distorted intelligence or knowingly used false data to support the call to war, it would be an unprecedented deception. Even if weapons are now found, it'll be difficult to justify pre-war language that indicated that the exact location of the weapons was known and that they were ready to deploy at a moment's notice. With a crisis of credibility brewing abroad and the integrity of our President and our foreign policy on the line, we need answers now. Rep. Henry Waxman has introduced legislation to create an independent commission to investigate the Bush administration's distortion of evidence. Please ask your Representative to pledge his or her support at: http://www.moveon.org/wmdpledge/ A President may make no more important decision than whether or not to take a country to war. If Bush and his officials deceived the American public to create support for the Iraq war, they need to be held accountable. Thanks. Mulder
the oath is to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States of America. (right? am i missing something else?)
a full and OPEN inquiry will never happen! The Republican majority in the house and senate will never let it happen.
