I can't really comment on Jabbar in his youth. Some say he was a hell of a player and should be ranked in the top 2 no matter who you may pick ahead of him. I'd pick Kareem over Russell, but then I haven't watched either of them play in their prime much. I started watching Kareem in the late 70's. He had the unstoppable Sky Hook, but I don't remember him being that much of an intimidator on defense at that point. Maybe somebody else can answer that better. Kareem's offense didn't match Hakeem's in terms of array of shots. But then with the "most unstoppable shot" in the game with the Sky Hook, why would he need that much more? I'd have a more difficult time arguing Hakeem over Kareem than Hakeem over Russell. I just wish I could've watched those guys play more in their prime. Blindly ranking them : 1) Wilt Chamberlain 2) Hakeem Olajuwon 3) Kareem Abdul Jabbar 4) Bill Russell Interestingly enough, where would you guys rank somebody like an Elvin Hayes in this lineup? Can somebody who watched the Big E play compare his game with Olajuwon's? ------------------ "I hate being in the lottery as much as the next guy, but come on people, that's where we need to be right now. We still don't have all of the pieces" -- Gascon, in conjunction with Clutch's Lottery Generator, has fired the starter's pistol on this season's lottery race. Let the tanking begin!
Both Jordan's fadeaway and Hakeem's fadeaway were pretty near impossible to block. Hakeem's was even more incredible because first, he's supposed to be a lumbering center. Second, his fadeaway was on the baseline. I don't know about you guys, but baseline shots were about the toughest shots I ever shot growing up. Your depth perception is horrible at that angle (or is it something else). Hakeem's fadeaway also usually left him somewhere behind the backboard either after the shot or during the shot. Now that's amazing. But either one was pretty incredible. Regarding Duncan. Offensively he is what basketball should be. The bank shots, the positioning for rebounding, the passing -- it's true what they say. He's fundamentally sound. I don't think he's Hakeem's equal on defense, though. Hakeem seemed to be more of an athlete than Duncan and it's on defense where it shows most. The explosiveness and timing required to block shots, the ability to steal the ball from guards, the ability to cover the court from the weakside and erase an unsuspecting victim's shot out of nowhere. There's only one center I've seen since the late 70's that could be compared to Hakeem in terms of having it on both sides of the ball and that's David Robinson. The explosiveness, the quickness, the speed, etc. As a matter of fact, I think he ran the court better than Hakeem early in their careers. ------------------ "I hate being in the lottery as much as the next guy, but come on people, that's where we need to be right now. We still don't have all of the pieces" -- Gascon, in conjunction with Clutch's Lottery Generator, has fired the starter's pistol on this season's lottery race. Let the tanking begin! [This message has been edited by Dr of Dunk (edited March 30, 2001).]
Have you ever seen him play? I doubt you have. He would be something like Zo or Mutumbo with something of an offensive game. ------------------ Never Underestimate the Heart of a Champion
My friend didn't get to watch many Rockets' games so he only looked at the stats. I need to counter this argument: Shaq not only averages more points. If we look at the points/FGA ratio, Shaq averages 1.4+ in his career while Hakeem is 1.3+. That means Shaq is more efficient in scoring? Hakeem don't get that many foul shots since he creates less contacts. By the way, do you guys know that both Francis and Mobley are more efficient scorers than Carter and Kobe looking at this ratio!? Theirs are also 1.3+, I think slightly lower than Hakeem's. That means Hakeem is still the most efficient scorer on the team while Mobley is actually a more efficient scorer than many think. ------------------ "'Guys, stand on my shoulders. I will take you to the promise land.' That is what he does." ........ Sam Cassel on Hakeem in 95 playoffs
I know Bob, I quit trying. Wilt was the greatest offensive force of his day, so much so that the league changed the rules to slow him down. Yet Bill Russell handled him one on one. 13 years, 11 championships - Wow! It makes me wonder what the debates will be like in 20-30 years, and how Hakeem will be viewed then. ------------------ Behad Sergeant at Arms of the Clutch BBS
Bill Russell handled Wilt Chamberlain "one-on-one" to the tune of Wilt racking up 28.7 points and 28.7 boards per game against Russell in their 147 head-to-head matchups (pulled off the 'Net somewhere; somebody confirm if they can). Well, I guess he did keep him under a 30ppg average. Russell averaged 14.5 pts and 27.3 rebs in those same contests. I saw an old interview with Oscar Robertson several years ago in which he said Wilt was the greatest. Quote from NBA.com & Tom Heinsohn : So the Hack-A-Shaq was the Hack-A-Stilt back then. I doubt there was any man alive that could handle Wilt one-on-one. ------------------ "I hate being in the lottery as much as the next guy, but come on people, that's where we need to be right now. We still don't have all of the pieces" -- Gascon, in conjunction with Clutch's Lottery Generator, has fired the starter's pistol on this season's lottery race. Let the tanking begin!
Quotes pulled from the net: Early in his career, Chamberlain and Boston Celtics star Bill Russell had one of the most intense rivalries in sports. Chamberlain was the unstoppable offensive force, Russell was the great defender. ( http://www.usatoday.com/2000/y2k014.htm ) "No doubt. He'd be just as good," Havlicek said of Russell. "Remember that, in addition to being physically gifted, he was always the smartest player on the floor. A player such as Hakeem [Olajuwon] might have given him trouble once or twice, but Russell would figure him out, and that would be that." ( http://nba.com/history/russell_wins.html;$sessionid$CJWH12C2MBL0DFMDAYTCFFI?_reque stid=23170 ) There is no doubt that Russell affected Chamberlain on the floor. Despite his overwhelming size advantage and despite his great offensive confidence, Chamberlain could never outplay Russell for any significant period of time. "He changes a lot with Russell," Celtics sixth man Frank Ramsey once observed about Chamberlain. "When he wants to take his banker against anyone else, he squats, jumps and shoots. Against Russell, he squats, fakes, shoots, fakes and then shoots. He's thinking Russell is going to block the shot. He knows the other centers can't, but RusselI can, and it bothers him." (same link as above) It was there that he found a fitting rival, Bill Russell of the Boston Celtics. Russell wasn't quite as tall as Chamberlain, but he was a defensive genius, the moving force behind the Celtics' dynasty. Their battles were monumental, a study in big man basketball. Often, Chamberlain wound up as frustrated by Russell as he had been by the triple overtime loss to North Carolina. ( http://allpop.com/BasketballChamberlain/oct13_wil4.html ) ------------------ Behad Sergeant at Arms of the Clutch BBS [This message has been edited by Behad (edited March 31, 2001).]
Thanks, DoD, for the analysis. From the stats and what I saw, I think Robinson had the potential to be as great as Hakeem, but he never would be because of his personality. Through out the years, everytime after a major loss, he would say "this is very disappointing" without anything more motivating or critical. That is his line, after 95's WCF, and after some losses in Spur's 98-99 title run. While people praise him for easily handing over to Duncan, I think it also reflects on his unwillingness to shoulder great responsibility alone. That was what Rodman said about him in 95's WCF. Hakeem is a fierce competitor. I guess if he did not start as a foreigner, he would have been as vocal a leader as MJ. ------------------ "'Guys, stand on my shoulders. I will take you to the promise land.' That is what he does." ........ Sam Cassel on Hakeem in 95 playoffs
Even funnier is that he's still squatting! Seriously, though, I would've loved to see some of these guys play, but none more than Wilt. ------------------ "I hate being in the lottery as much as the next guy, but come on people, that's where we need to be right now. We still don't have all of the pieces" -- Gascon, in conjunction with Clutch's Lottery Generator, has fired the starter's pistol on this season's lottery race. Let the tanking begin!
You guys just don't get it. The Object of the Game is to Win Bill Russell won 11 championships in his 13 year career!!! You can throw all the offensive numbers Wilt had, out the window. He won 2 championships in his 14 year career. It is a shame they didn't keep blocked shots when Russell was playing. No one would ever break that record. Bill Russell did whatever was needed to win, and knew how to win. Simply the best at it...EVER!!! ------------------ "Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored."- (Aldous Huxley)
Behad, the way I interpreted Gascan't (that ratbastid for not wanting playoffs) is if Shaq was Dream's size..... ...need I say more.
Zan Tabak and Will Perdue won. ------------------ Houston's Schedule: (39-33) @Was, @NJN, Dal, Sea, Atl, @Uth, Den, @Por, @Van, Min Minnesota's Schedule: (42-30) @Por, Por, Pho, LaL, @Van, @LaL, @LaC, Uth, @Hou, @Dal We're not mathematically elimated yet.
Yeah, but Bobo, there were other people on those Celtics teams that won multiple championships, too. I agree it's about winning championships, but this topic has kinda changed to "Who's the best center". And if you want somebody who did what was needed to win, how about Chamberlain accepting to score less and leading the freaking league in assists? Chamberlain was the greatest center. Russell had more championships, but that doesn't mean he was better, just that his teams were better. ------------------ "I hate being in the lottery as much as the next guy, but come on people, that's where we need to be right now. We still don't have all of the pieces" -- Gascon, in conjunction with Clutch's Lottery Generator, has fired the starter's pistol on this season's lottery race. Let the tanking begin!
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Start a thread in NBA Forum. Leeeettttttsssss geettttttt readddddddddyyy toooo ruuuuuummmmmbbbblllleeeeee ------------------ "Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored."- (Aldous Huxley)
LOL! Nevermind... I'm running for cover. ------------------ "I hate being in the lottery as much as the next guy, but come on people, that's where we need to be right now. We still don't have all of the pieces" -- Gascon, in conjunction with Clutch's Lottery Generator, has fired the starter's pistol on this season's lottery race. Let the tanking begin!
Wow Wilt's amazing. You mean he actually faked, then shot the ball only to catch it and fake again and THEN shoot? Amazing. ------------------ Houston's Schedule: (39-33) @Was, @NJN, Dal, Sea, Atl, @Uth, Den, @Por, @Van, Min Minnesota's Schedule: (42-30) @Por, Por, Pho, LaL, @Van, @LaL, @LaC, Uth, @Hou, @Dal We're not mathematically elimated yet. [This message has been edited by Band Geek Mobster (edited March 31, 2001).]
This is the page you were looking for DoD. http://www.netaxs.com/people/dsnine/sixers/wiltbill.html ------------------ Behad Sergeant at Arms of the Clutch BBS [This message has been edited by Behad (edited March 31, 2001).]
Newsgroups: alt.sports.basketball.nba.la-lakers View complete thread Date: 2001-03-26 10:28:29 PST Charlie Board <cnc405@americasm01.nt.com> wrote in message http://groups.google.com/groups?ic=1&q=msgid:3ABF62FF.B3C4AC3D@americasm01.nt.com... > LoOneYto0n wrote: > > > > "Jay Lee" wrote: > > > > >> I'd say that Shaq has the opportunity to be one of the five best centers > > >> ever to play the game. That's nothing to sneeze at, and certainly no > > >> slam on Shaq. Of course at least one somebody won't see it that way. > > >Probably the top 5 Center of the lakers. > > >Shaq still pales compared to Olajuwon. > > > > career: > > Olujawon: 22.6ppg, .513 FG%, 11.4 RPG, 3.2 BPG, 2.5 APG. > > Shaq: 27.5ppg, .577 FG%, 12.4 RPG, 2.7 BPG, 2.8 APG. > > > > Yeah, Shaq pales in comparison to Olujawon...sure. Get real and look up > > statistics before you post things you have no idea about. Oh yeah, since > > you'll bring it up, 2 rings for Hakeem and 1 for Shaq. But Shaq will have more > > when his career is over. > > Putting aside the fact that I disagree with your fortune telling (I think > it's most probable Shaq gets no more rings)......it ain't just rings > Hakeem has more of. I figure he trails both Hakeem & Robinson so far > in his career, though he can conceivably catch them: > > Hakeem Shaq DRob > Titles 2 1 1 > MVP 1 1 1 > Finals MVP 2 1 0 > Defensive POY 2 0 1 > ROY 0 1 1 > All NBA 1st 6 2 4 > All NBA 2nd 3 2 2 > All NBA 3rd 3 3 3 > All-star 12 8 10 > All-Def 1st 5 0 4 > All-Def 2nd 4 1 4 > Scoring Title 0 1 1 > Rebound Title 2 0 1 > > The all-Time Best Centers (IMHO) as of right now: > 1. Kareem > 2. Wilt > 3. Russell > 4. Moses > 5. Hakeem > 6. Drob > 7. Shaq > > It's far too late in his career for Shaq to catch the top 3. You must have missed Roy's post a couple months ago. He already declared Shaq the greatest "center" of all-time. Of course, that wasn't enough for Roy. So now he's moving on to greatest "player" of all-time. ------------------
My Top 5 Wilt Chamberlain Bill Russell Kareem Abdul-Jabbar Hakeem Olajuwon Shaq ????? Firstly, it's too early to include Shaq. Sure, he's good, he's dominant. But look at his competition. He's only been playing with the recent generation guys, but Dream has played through so much competitors in the same position. Back in the 80s and early 90s, you had guys like Ewing, Malone, Mutombo etc. If you want to go back furthur, the other centers had competition too. Russell vs Wilt, Kareem vs Reed, Dream and Ewing even. ------------------ Do not harm little children!
Also, it ain't about the stats. It's what they bring to the game. Hakeem = Class Shaq = New-age over-paid Punk ------------------ Do not harm little children!
