Tel Aviv U VP: Sharon's Plans to turn Israel into the old South Africa

Ok.. here is where we disagree. Israel is not devoted to domination by one religion and one ethnicity. Have you been to Israel? There are many different religions there and they all have freedoms to worship as they please. I remember visiting the druze and they said that jews are always friendly with them.

I wouldnt consider myself a gung-ho zionist. I don't even plan on moving to Israel. However, the occupation ONLY EXISTS because of security reasons. Get it? Do I need to say it a million times? If Israel knew that Palestinians wouldn't bomb and attack innocent civilians, they would pull out in a heartbeat. You can't deny that Israel has pulled out of towns NUMEROUS times(and this is a fact) only to be met with more bombings. The occupation has not been continuous.. only off and on! It is unfortunate that bulldozing happens. And yes, this policy is a little extreme by my taste.

 

in trying to partially solve one problem (the persecution and displacement of jews) zionism created another (the palestinian problem) which remains with us today. was zionism the best solution at the time? i think the jury is still out on that one. frankly i think universal human rights education, and the triumph and proliferation of liberal ideals have done a lot more to curb anti-semitism and make live better for jews worldwide than anything the founding of israel has accomplished.

but the state of Israel is a reality, and reversing zionism as the Arab states have insisted on until recently would probably cause far more suffering to all concerned.

instead, shouldn't we be working to see that Israel becomes more accomodating towards international norms and to the Palestinian plight? the recent proposals by Saudi Arabia (recognition of Israel and the cessation of terror attacks in exchange for the recreation of the Palestinian state and pre-1967 borders) sound like a firm first step toward fulfilling the U.N. mandate and the intent of the vast majority of the international community. Whatever interim steps or plans (like the Mitchell or Tenet proposals) we need in the meantime, the US should be exerting maximum pressure on BOTH SIDES to ensure proper implementation.

i don't think i'm alone in thinking that the Arab world would perceive the US to be a heck of a lot more "just" in its dealings when it employs nearly as harsh a hand in dealing with Israeli violations of international norms as it did with Yugoslavia or Iraq. Israel is the epitome of a rogue state, with countless documented human rights violations (check any respectable worldwide human rights watchdog), with multiple outstanding U.N. resolutions ignored and unimplemented, all on top of a completed and unsanctioned nuclear weapons program. but all this needs to be weighed against Israel's need for security, if not survival. the solution would have to lie somewhere in between.

many of you suggest that we're biased toward the Arabs. but let me ask you: just how much more can the Israelis or outside world do to Palestinians to stop terrorism? I challenge you to find anything which Israel has not yet done to stop terrorism which would not otherwise seriously damage the already precarious human rights situation facing the Palestinians.

If you agree that the problem stems from mistaken policies on both sides, and you understand that the maximum pressure has already been placed on one of these sides (the Palestinians by Israel), then it is not too difficult to see why people think that the only way to de-escalate the situation is through applying pressure to the side which still has room to maneuver (Israel).

I sympathize with the victims of suicide bombings as much as I do the Palestinians. And we're all seeking a way out of the situation. If only people can remember the days with Rabin, there is still hope here.

 

My view (and possibly others as well) is that while the actions of Isreal have failed to end suicide bombings, they very well may have severly limited them in frequency and magnitude. Many feel that putting pressure on Israel or Israel withdrawing and giving in to the Saudi or similar proposals would move them closer to peace. I happen to disagree, since the Palestinians have invariably responded to any such action with more attacks.

What people need to realize is that Israel is not America. It is a Jewish nation, and as such, the Jewish people will likely get the best deal inside her borders. Iran is a Muslim nation, if you are a non-Muslim in Iran, life is gonna be harder.

Like it or not, the world operates on a might makes right doctrine. We like to say that it doesn't, but that is a fantasy. We won WWII so the Nazis were the bad guys and we were the good guys. If the Axis powers had one the story would be different. If the Russians had won the cold war, it would be capitalism bad, communism good. Isrhas all of the power in the Palestinian situation. As the more powerful nation, they are not going to be the ones to make all of the compromises. Sucks, but that is life.

 

So if Sharon wins, Israel is turned into the new South Africa.

If the PLO wins, Israel is turned into Auschwitz.

I think I'm with Sharon on this one.

 

"Everytime we do something you (shimon peres) tell me America will do this and will do that.............I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it."
-Ariel Sharon
Knesset, Tel Aviv, October 3, 2001

 

How about option 3...

 

Exactly. That's the crux of it all. When both sides get to that point, we may have progress.

You have folks with bias, but are open to discussion. I would place FD Kahn and myself (most humbly ) in that group. Then you have folks who see only one-side repeatedly. glnch believes that any criticism of Israel leads to being labeled anti-semitic. I criticize Israel, but it hasn't happened to me yet, so thats not it. People believe he's anti-semitic because his actions consistently show that he is anti-Israel. I am not convinced that he's anti-semitic, but I am certain that his view is biased and that he's clearly anti-Israel.

Lets be clear...again. Both sides have performed heinous acts over the years. Both sides have innocents' blood on their hands. Many of the civilians on both sides have done nothing wrong, and in fact are paying for the mistakes of their leaders not just from today but for the last 50 years. We will have to get past all of that, or we are going to have the OK Corral with no survivors.

Palestinians will have to realize that Israel is here to stay. Israel will have to realize that Palestine is here to stay, and that Palestinian statehood is not for the negotiating table. They both will have to realize that they are neighbors forever, and might as well begin healing the wounds today. Both sides will have to take risks to make peace. Both sides will need real leaders. And strong intermediaries will need to help. (Unfortunately, I don't see any leaders or intermediaries that measure-up, yet)

IMO, repeatedly blaming one side is just weak and simple-minded.

 

I call bull**** on this one.

 

Do a search for the quote, Kagy it seems real

http://www.wrmea.com/html/newsitem_s.htm
http://sijpa.org/world.htm
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=Every+time+we+do+something+you+(shimon+peres)+tell+me+America+will+do+this+and+will+do+that.............I+want+to+tell+you+something+very+clear:+Don%27t+worry+about+American+pressure+on+Israel.+We,+the+Jewish+people,+control+America,+and+the+Americans+know+it.%22+-Ariel+Sharon+Knesset,+Tel+Aviv,+October+3,+2001&spell=1
http://standardnewspapers.com/News/article/article.asp?NewsID=8958&sID=13
http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/01/10/Sharon3.html

There's alot more of where that came from

 

I have heard of the quote also (I imagine that glynch posted it previously). Are any of these un-biased? The only ones that I found seem like Palestinian, Islamic, neo-nazi (!), or David Duke (!!) sites.

BTW, if you need $1,000, the neo-nazi site will pay you if you can prove that Hitler was aware of the holocaust.

 

Let us suppose that for some reason Israel decided to return to its 1948 borders. If the Palestinians then continued the bombings, what actions would you support by the Israelis?

 

The quote is very real. Sharon later spoke about it and apologized. He said it was taken out of context. Ofcourse, all the anti-Israel people had a field day on this one... lol

 

LOL! How do you take that out of context?

Sharon's an idiot.

 

I have several things from various posters to respond to:

What???!!! Saudi Arabia is ADMITTING to sponoring terror attacks? Sounds like they need to be smacked around a bit. I say that President Bush needs to stop telling Israel that they need to show restraint.

A war the Palestinians STARTED and then got trounced. While I believe that the Israeli leadership needs a lesson in civility, I reject the notion that Israel just decided one day to take that land. They were attacked and then won the war...to the victors go the spoils.

They destroy it after a round (not just one but several) suicide bombings in which their civilian citizenry are killed. I don't agree with tearing down houses or with destroying an economy...but if Israel wants to send in the military to seek out the men planning the attacks and recruiting people to execute the attacks, then it is fair game.

They HAVE withdrawn several times...only to be bombed. To expect the Israeli government to turn these lands over and create a Palestinian state one day is to expect something that has never been done by ANY government in world history. They'll certainly NEVER turn it over until the bombings cease PERMANENTLY.

Yeah...they'll use nukes on the Palestinian State should such a state be formed and then the Palestinians attack Israel. Just like the US would nuke Cuba, right?

 

I read a post on the bbs long ago that details all the major US government department officials' ethnicity, guess what, nearly all of them were Jews under the Clinton administration. Don't know about the status quo. So what Sharon said might have some truth in it.

 

holy crap! i can't believe he said that!!!

 

i always thought that the immense power of the Jewish lobby in Washington and the de facto Jewish domination of American popular opinion and mass media (relative to the strength of Israel's enemies) were like the Israeli nuclear program. Everybody knows about it. Nobody dares to admit it. Nobody can or will do anything about it. And so it's best for everyone to just stay quiet about it...

damn straight! sharon IS AN IDIOT!

 

So in your mind, it follows that means that Israel controls the US because there were a lot of politicians of Jewish descent in the Executive branch?

When we had a Catholic President, were people saying that we were 'controlled' by the Vatican?

Are we controlled by the Bar since many legislators are attorneys?

Jewish-Americans may yield influence in the US, but they are Americans, not Israelis. Sharon does not 'control' them.

Any influence they yield is in the melting pot with all other issues. Other groups also yield influence in DC.,...NRA, farmers, environmental groups, etc. Here we see $1,500,000 spent on pro-Israel lobbying, while $7,000,000 is spent by environmental lobbyists and $14,000,000 is spent by human rights lobbyists. http://www.opensecrets.org/lobbyists/indus.asp?Ind=Q

Or how about some of the industries that spend $200,000,000 a year on lobbying? http://www.opensecrets.org/lobbyists/index.asp

Now that we have an Republican administration that most likely has many fewer Jewish-Americans, how does your logic reconcile with the fact that this administration is probably more pro-Israel than the last 'Jewish' one?

I guess, why look at facts and think when you can apply brainless, racist 'rules'.

I've enjoyed reading some of your posts, Panda. I hope that this one is more a result of your naivete than racism.