Yes, it was and is. It is an apple of truth that can fall on either side of the fence. For example, Major sanctifies his guesstimates and yet ignores my physical evidence, i.e. aerial photos and NBC estimates. BTW, I still cannot figure out how to upload my pictures. If you know how, I will be happy to send them to you.
Sorry if i didn't see your earlier post. Skimming through the last 5 pages of the thread, I don't see it, but I may have missed it. These links in your most recent post don't work though. But regardless, I'm not sure what your point is? NBC and police departments and everyone else estimate crowd sizes based on visuals. My point is that they have lots of experience doing that. In the San Antonio case, the data 538 links to is the police department estimate of 4,000 people - police & fire departments have the most experience at that stuff. I would trust them over media estimates, and I would trust media estimates over civilian eyeball estimates. You never said what your estimate was?
Sorry I missed this earlier - the issue here is that Lehman is connected to other companies. When they fail, that adversely affects the rest of the system. Lehman failing is what led to the credit markets locking up in September/October which was going to topple other banks. The day after it's failure, we were literally hours away from the entire Western financial system collapsing ( http://www.boingboing.net/2009/02/09/rep-kanjorski-550-bi.html ). In the following month, you had trillions of dollars lost in the stock market, and it contributed to the massive economic slowdown in Q4 which cost hundreds of billions more in long wages from lost jobs, etc. These things are systemic - and that was from simply Lehman failing and the possibility of other banks failing. Imagine if you took Citi or BoA or AIG and they failed. It would be an overnight, instant depression. The lending markets certainly have opened up since October. There's still work to be done, but major, healthy companies were unable to get basic 30-day lines of credit back then. That was basically unheard of. That panic has basically passed. Oh I don't disagree with that at all. I disagree with them, but I have no problem with people protesting the bailout and all that. I *do* have a problem with people acting like a massive silent majority has woken up when you just a multi-issue protest much smaller than many in the past 8 years that was actively encouraged by a major news network. It's the first big protest on the grassroots right - and that has relevance and value for that movement. But to act like it's seismic shift with the US population coming alive hating what the government is doing is simply nonsense. Polling data shows the opposite. Crowd size data shows the opposite. Historical evidence shows the opposite. The only people that suggest that it's some kind of historic movement are people who want it to be that way, and their evidence tends to be anecdotal.
Post #157. The links still work there. Maybe it's because I copied them from there and pasted. Also, like the tale of the three blind men and the elephant, it depends on what department you ask and on what day. I'd rather look at the aerials and trust my own eyesight. From the highest natural vantage point on Alamo Square, the crowd was packed -- and I mean no open spaces in the crowd -- from Crockett to the Post Office, or about six blocks. You could put 4,500 people in the plaza alone. In fact, the reporter on the scene alluded to that.
Major -- Visuals like the ones I posted are hard to refute, aren't they? In addition, they are more credible that a boingboing.net and the like. BTW, Rasmussen contradicted the results of the Gallup poll you proclaimed sacrosanct.
Honestly, those visuals don't look like more than 4,500 people. There could have been more there, but I don't see how the aerial shots indicate that.
Thumbs, I can relate to you being excited about participating in a protest like this. I'll give a few examples. Back in the '60's, I got excited when trying to save some huge old trees, hundreds of years old, at a noted Houston university, along with several hundred other students. Were we successful? No, but the cause was worthwhile and I still think they made a big mistake doing what they did to scar the campus. Big numbers? Who cares? Like I said, it was exciting. I also marched in protests that had tens of thousands of all ages, against the Vietnam War, and felt I was making a difference. You won't like this, but I also marched for a woman's right to choose, being one of a minority of guys that felt themselves to be feminists. and I still feel the same way. It's exciting and I get it. You shouldn't be criticised for participating, and I admire anyone who goes the extra mile to express their political beliefs, whatever they may happen to be. It bothers me that we are subjected to a cable news channel co-opting this whole thing for ratings, but I'll admit they aren't the first to do it, only the first to create an entire network devoted to distortion of the truth, and promoting this kind of political action not for altruistic reasons, but because they dig the ratings. Used to be that you would have certain reporters with an obvious bias, but the same network would have others that showed the other side. Fox doesn't do that and because they are how they are, they end up being dismissed by a lot of moderates, who also end up dismissing the story covered, perhaps unfairly, simply because of the incredible bias so obvious to them. I hear this response in "real life" all the time. Anyway, I think you should be proud of what you did, even if I don't, personally, agree with that particular issue.
Well as you describe, part of this was panic. The market was saved by the Fed fixing rates or doing something (like I said before I'm not doubting you, I just don't have a finance degree). Panic wearing off added with Fed making some moves has done the most to slow the sell off. I'm certainly not doubting that something had to be done government side. I simply question the moves (like I said particularly the mortgage move because I used to do loan modifications for 3 years), I don't think the market would have completely collapsed without the stimulus plan, it would have just been a lot smaller, and the rebuilding program would have taken a tremendously long amount of time. Once again panic that was fixed from the Fed changing the rates and general fears subsiding. I'm with you there. On the other hand, I can kind of see where Thumbs is coming from. Back in 2004 I attended the March for Life in DC while I was living there. Constitution was jam packed from the Washington Monument to the Supreme Court, yet CNN said there was only something like 10,000 people there. Here are some pictures from that March: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_VUGyO1EINtI/SXjlYGSmBmI/AAAAAAAAAQg/XykCdiDBhvs/s400/march4life3.jpg http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_L6pDyjqqsvY/SXlHFbS73iI/AAAAAAAAZeI/zCKdUA5v7XE/s400/right+to+life.jpg And from when I chaperoned high schoolers there in 2006 http://images.google.com/imgres?img...org.mozilla:en-US:official&sa=N&start=90&um=1 Both times the CNN reports said something like 10,000 people or such. I cannot find these reports on CNN.com because here's what shows up when you search "March for Life" on their website: http://search.cnn.com/search?query=...s&sortBy=date&intl=false¤tPage=1&nt=SG2 It's hard to think someone is not biased in a certain way when the story barely gets covered, or the numbers are skewed in a way to make it look like your movement doesn't have any support. So while I agree with you that it's not something to b**** and moan about, I can certainly empathize with thumbs' account. It's just sad that political debate in America has been dumbed down to finding a moron in a crowd with a sign (and a baby in that CNN reporter's case), and harassing them and trying to make them look stupid. Yes, they are probably going to be stupid. Your typical American is not that smart, and even less articulate. These are the types of people Sam loves to eviscerate. And yes it's fun to watch. And yes I'm probably going to hell or getting extended time in purgatory for that. Politics just stinks right now. It's hard to be passionate without looking like a moron.
There are ways to frame a shot to make it look like thousands. Ask Cecil B. Demille. Sounds like someone learned to count crowds at GOP bootcamp. "The Virginia Beach Fire Marshal's office estimated the size of the crowd to be 12,000. A McCain campaign spokeswoman claimed the crowd size was 25,000, but the Convention Center's capacity is only 16,000." http://www.wvec.com/news/topstories/stories/wvec_top_101308_mccain_rally.10ac0eb1e.html# When the facts don't fit your reality; find a new source.
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Democracy is a form of government that cannot long survive, for as soon as the people learn that they have a voice in the fiscal policies of the government, they will move to vote for themselves all the money in the treasury and bankrupt the nation. Funny you should mention that, because that is exactly what is happening in America today. Those that refuse to pay their own way in this world have banded together with short-sighted politicians to abuse those that actually do produce wealth. By voting themselves more and more of my earnings, I have been reduced to slave status, a sacrificial animal who is forced to work to support others. Sound familiar? It’s called government enforced slavery through taxation. The politicians have finally convinced enough people that they can have everything for free without working for it. Taxation without representation is tyranny.
Forgive me, but after the last 30 years of failed republican fiscal policy, there really isn't anything democrats can learn from the whiny right. It's time for adults to be in charge for a while.
Yes, I'm sure you would think that. But I'm sorry, my statement isn't anymore ridiculous than announcing... Talk about paranoid delusions...
Do you understand how govt. works? Do you understand the current policies? 1. There is representation. There are congressmen at every level where taxes are agreed upon. Those congressmen are representation. If you don't like how they vote, then vote against them. 2. Also is your problem tax cuts without representation? Because almost every single American is getting a tax break, not a tax increase.
This doesn't matter to them -- I'm not sure why. white is black. up is down. data are lies. And so forth. I just wish I understood how fringy this kind of nonsense really is, versus how many weslinders and refmans there are out there. Again, we need a strong and brain-positive conservative party, badly. Making the DNC look smart has been quite an achievement by the GOP, but it isn't good for any of us in the long run. Two smart parties, please.
My guess is some liberal opened an account and wrote this to say hey let's show everyone just how dumb Republicans are. Well done my liberal friend. I think I'll open up a new account with a name like Che or Engels and just start posting ridiculous over the top accounts of how we have been freed from the Tyranny of George Bush. I'm on to you STIX, and bigtexxx, and TJ. Watching you guys like a hawk.
That's a good point. Sadly not much on here will give us any insight. The ones that will get the attention are the extremes, and the fringe. Are they a significant part of the protests, or are there far more Weslinders, and refmans at these events? It seems nearly impossible to tell. Either way I know that it must be frustrating for the rationals that are there. At many of the political rallies or events I've gone to, I've get in a pissy mood because of a lot of the people who are supporting the same causes that I do, but in a way that doesn't acknowledge basic facts and truths, or different ways of looking at things.
