Among National League CFs listed at ESPN with more than 350 PAs(16 teams), Taveras ranks 12th in OBP, 16th in SLG, and 15th in OPS. Only Corey Patterson of the Cubs was a worse hitter than Taveras, based on OPS. I know people like to bring up his speed. But his 75% stealing is not exactly off the charts. And his bunt hits really decreases the value of his BA. For most players, hitting a single will generally bring home a run from 2nd. But not with Taveras, whose infield hits can only advance runners one base at a time. What does his postseason glory has to do with the regular season? I absolutely love Taveras' potential, but as wrath_of_khan pointed out, this isn't about potential.
I know its not about potential, the guy almost batted .300 for an entire season as a rookie. that's production.
Exactly, and I was making the point that Howard's stats over HALF a season don't mean that he should win the award because he's the better prospect. If you're going to quote me, at least quote me in support of the argument I was trying to make. Not to support your argument. EDIT: That last sentence was addressed to meh, not pgabriel.
Huh? See: Bagwell, Jeff. Also see: Miceli, Dan; Biggio, Craig; Dierker, Larry; and Williams, Jimy. While you're at it, check out Ausmus, Brad; and Everett, Adam. Everybody hates on all the Astros. Why can't we all just get along?
I know this will sound unpopular, but I thought Howard deserved it.....he practically carried the Phils offense down the stretch. One big hit after another. I know he played in far fewer games than Willie did, but what matters to me how he played for the 2005 season, whether that be for 5 games, 50 games or 150 games. Howard would have been 7th in SLG and 5th in OPS in the league had he had the ABs. To me, he was the "better" rookie player.
I knew Howard would get it, and honestly I didn't have a problem with that either. I wonder if there is a defined minimum that the BBWAA has agreed upon?
There is no way 5 games is a good sample size to determine how good a player is. 50 games probably isn't enough. I do think Howard played just enough to warrant the award. If Taveras would have batted .315, he would have won.
granted, but does he get those hits if he's at the tail end of a long, grinding season? most rookies hit a wall at some point because the number of games and travel start to take their toll, not to mention the pressure. taveras successfully traversed that; actually hit .300+ in august, when most first-year players (actually, every player) get worn down and tired. howard was great. so was jason lane over the same time frame. but i doubt he'll get many MVP votes...
That's a very good point. However, I don't think Taveras was really that strong a candidate. His .OBP for a leadoff man was atrocious. If Jason Lane qualified as a rookie, he would've received votes and maybe won Rookie of the Year even had he played the same amount of games as Howard. You can't compare the ROY and MVP awards.
perhaps it was a bad analogy. i wasn't comparing the awards. but speaking of MVP, some are going to vote arod over ortiz in the AL MVP simply because ortiz was a DH & didn't play the field. and my contention is that i would agree with that line of thinking. taveras' numbers don't, by their lonesome, trump howard's, except that taveras consistently produced over the course of an entire season, and that holds a lot of weight with me because it's not easy to do. pitchers didn't get a second or third shot to exploit whatever weaknesses howard might have had. he didn't have to patrol the field 162 days of the year and deal with the wear-and-tear consequences. he didn't have to go through the grind that can derail even the most seasoned vets. and while he certainly stepped into a tough situation, was it any tougher than taveras having to replace beltran after making the jump from double-A?
I'm with you on almost all of that (except the whole DH/MVP thing, but that's a different thread). I think they gave it to Howard because there really wasn't anyone else exceptional to give it to, IMO. I'm extremely pleased with Taveras and I think he will make a great leadoff man, but he just didn't do all that much this season to warrant a ROY award. It's almost like they could've decided not to give it out this year.
Taveras got robbed! I think he played very well all season unlike that Ryan and Francour guy who only had good second halfs. And plus Taveras played in the World Series.
One other point ... if Taveras had such a crappy season (paraphrasing some of you), then why did he win the other two ROY awards? Clearly, he's worthy of the award according to other sets of voters -- one of which consisted of MLB players and not writers like Richard Justice. I wonder, by the way, how Howard would have done when pitchers saw him for the 2nd or 3rd time ...
You could use the same argument against your decision. Clearly, many people believe Howard's worthy even if he only played half the season. I think Taveras is winning these awards because there are people that believe like you do. They don't believe Howard or Francour should win because they didn't play the whole season. Basically, if you feel that way, it's Taveras' award by default since this wasn't exactly a bumper crop of rookies this year that played the entire season.
For all those doubting Howard's credentials because he played a bit over 1/2 season, consider this bit of trivia: Cal Ripken made the Topps all rookie team in 1981 AND 1982. Ripken only played in 23 games in 1981 and hit .128 (not a misprint) with 0 HRs, 0 RsBI and 1 run scored.
Yeah, but Topps used to compile those teams, and create their "future stars" cards, based on the minor league career of the player and how that projects to the big leagues. Looks like they nailed it with RIP. When I was a kid, I had a "future stars" card that had Rafael Palmeiro and two other guys on it.
ryan howard is going to be a great hitter in the majors, but how can you not give it to a guy who started from day 1 this season, batted leadoff (most of the season) on the team that went to world series, and is already one of the biggest threats on the base paths in the majors???? sorry, willy meant a whole hell of a lot more to a world series team, than howard did to a team that didn't even make the playoffs.
