Taking Yao out for defensive purpose at the end of the games

No, Yao has more blocks per 48 min game.

Have u ever looked at 82games.com?
http://www.82games.com/0809/08HOU17.HTM
http://www.82games.com/0809/08HOU14.HTM

Look at the blocks and defensive rating for both.

 

You might want to take a look at 82games also and then we can discuss some more.

 

Geez, I thought it was pretty obvious.


Now, if you could get a written guarantee from the Spurs that they WONT do a PNR with Duncan, and instead let him post up, then Yao is the man. But they WONT do that, because it limits their options.

So while Yao may be a bit better than Chuck guarding TD one on one with his back to the basket, Chuck is light years ahead of Yao should they do a PNR. And since he is close to Yao in a one on one post situation, its a no brainer when both options are there. Oh, and should TD face up Chuck, his only option would be a jumper, since he aint getting to the basket on him. So actually Chuck is better on TD in 2 respects, while Yao is better on only 1.

 

Chuck even does an admirable job against Shaq (and I'm not even including the fact that Shaq had to sit out a few weeks from getting injured while going against Hayes). Like you said, it actually works because Shaq doesn't shoot jumpers.

And as I've said before, Chuck is one of the few guys who can legitamately guard Shaq for a few plays and then guard Nash for a few plays if he had to.

 

okay... then let's look at more than just this season.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hayesch01.html

Code:

Season  	Age  	Tm  	Lg  	G  	MP  	PER  	TS%  	eFG%  	ORB%  	DRB%  	TRB%  	AST%  	STL%  	BLK%  	TOV%  	USG%  	ORtg  	DRtg  	OWS  	DWS  	WS
2005-06 	22 	HOU 	NBA 	40 	535 	18.0 	.589 	.562 	14.9 	24.1 	19.6 	4.6 	2.6 	2.1 	8.8 	12.2 	127 	98 	1.2 	1.1 	2.3
2006-07 	23 	HOU 	NBA 	78 	1714 	13.9 	.587 	.573 	13.8 	21.1 	17.5 	4.4 	2.2 	0.8 	14.6 	11.9 	119 	98 	2.8 	3.5 	6.3
2007-08 	24 	HOU 	NBA 	79 	1575 	11.2 	.512 	.511 	9.6 	20.8 	15.3 	8.4 	2.9 	2.0 	21.1 	8.5 	107 	97 	0.7 	3.6 	4.4
2008-09 	25 	HOU 	NBA 	62 	751 	7.2 	.356 	.351 	10.0 	22.1 	16.3 	6.5 	2.2 	1.6 	16.5 	7.5 	96 	100 	-0.1 	1.5 	1.3
Career 			          NBA 	259 	4575 	12.4 	.538 	.526 	11.9 	21.5 	16.8 	6.1 	2.5 	1.5 	16.0 	10.0 	114 	98 	4.6 	9.7 	14.3

First of all, blocks have nothing to do with if he's a good post player or not. Blocks are imho overrated. They are fun to watch and occasionally are necessary to make a successful defensive stop, but the way that the nba game is played now, a block is a luxury not a necessity.

Chuck's defensive rating is down this season, but if you compare it to last season or the two years before he is better than Yao at post defense.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/mingya01.html

Code:

Season  	Age  	Tm  	Lg  	G  	MP  	PER  	TS%  	eFG%  	ORB%  	DRB%  	TRB%  	AST%  	STL%  	BLK%  	TOV%  	USG%  	ORtg  	DRtg  	OWS  	DWS  	WS
2002-03 	22 	HOU 	NBA 	82 	2383 	20.6 	.570 	.499 	9.7 	22.6 	16.3 	10.6 	0.7 	4.4 	15.2 	22.1 	111 	100 	5.1 	3.5 	8.5
2003-04 	23 	HOU 	NBA 	82 	2692 	21.9 	.586 	.522 	9.1 	22.4 	16.1 	9.3 	0.4 	4.5 	14.3 	25.3 	110 	97 	6.4 	4.7 	11.1
2004-05 	24 	HOU 	NBA 	80 	2447 	23.2 	.614 	.552 	10.2 	21.4 	15.9 	5.0 	0.8 	5.1 	14.1 	26.8 	113 	99 	5.8 	4.6 	10.5
2005-06 	25 	HOU 	NBA 	57 	1949 	25.6 	.592 	.519 	9.1 	25.6 	17.5 	9.8 	0.8 	3.9 	12.0 	29.9 	113 	100 	4.9 	3.4 	8.3
2006-07 	26 	HOU 	NBA 	48 	1624 	26.5 	.601 	.516 	7.2 	24.7 	16.0 	12.3 	0.6 	4.5 	14.3 	33.5 	111 	98 	4.0 	3.4 	7.3
2007-08 	27 	HOU 	NBA 	55 	2044 	22.5 	.587 	.507 	9.6 	22.9 	16.4 	11.5 	0.6 	4.0 	15.1 	27.1 	112 	99 	4.1 	4.0 	8.2
2008-09 	28 	HOU 	NBA 	68 	2266 	22.6 	.621 	.549 	9.4 	23.7 	16.9 	10.3 	0.6 	4.2 	16.8 	26.5 	113 	101 	4.7 	4.2 	8.9
Career 			          NBA 	472 	15405 	23.0 	.596 	.524 	9.3 	23.2 	16.4 	9.6 	0.7 	4.4 	14.5 	26.9 	112 	99 	34.9 	27.9 	62.7

Also, this has to do with minutes played. Defensive rating is dependent on possessions played. Chuck is playing less possessions so his points per possession ratio is going to be skewed... because of the small sample size.

My eyes and experience tell me that I would much rather have Chuck playing defense in a last minute possession than Yao.. the exceptions being occasionally Dwight Howard or Shaq... and sometimes, as prof pointed out... I even want Chuck in on Shaq.

Edit: I also want to say, I don't think that Yao is a bad defender. Not in the least. I think he has improved each year in that regard as I have been watching him play.

This is about leaving him in to be exposed or covering the paint with someone who can do more than block a shot.

 

You started badly already. Why in heck do we want to look at the past. Can we get Chuck Hayes from last year to play now?

How do read that to say Chuck is better than Yao, even in the past?

Blocks has nothing to do with being a good post player?
Tell that to Hakeem. Of course block is important, it just does tell the whole story, u have to consider if the guy makes opponents change their shots also ... BTW, I did not bring up blocks either, it's the other guy who claimed Chuck is jsut as good (or as bad) as Yao in blocking shots.

Ok, the small sample size theory again. What make u think Chuck will do better with a bigger sample size? He might just do worse. You can only judge with what u have, if you start the what-ifs, u can make just about any claims.

U mean to say u want the old Chuck? don't you?

After u do all of this analysis, u forgot something ... Chuck's numbers are mostly against PF. You might want to look at the numbers against Center and then come back and make ur case.

 

Tim Duncan doesn't want to be called a Center.

And I am finished arguing with you. I understand that you have something set in your mind as fact regardless of what I say you won't recognize any differently.

It's a cyclical argument. You believe that Yao is better against everyone in the post regardless. I believe in the case of one possession Chuck is the better statistical bet.

We aren't ever going to agree so let's just leave it at that.

 

Here are some simple numbers from 82games
http://www.82games.com/0809/08HOU14.HTM
http://www.82games.com/0809/08HOU17.HTM

Opponent Counterpart 48-Minute Production

Code:

Chuck's
      eFG% PER
PF   38%  14
C    55%   22

Yao's
C     46%  15

 

I'd like to know how 82games determines which player Chuck is guarding. The problem with their counterpart production stat is you don't know how often they correctly identified the counterpart. The Rockets consider Chuck to be a top 10 post defender in this league. I'd trust their opinion, and my own eyes, before I'd trust that stat.

Why don't you point out some specific post players that have gone to work against Chuck this season. Then we can take a closer look at what happened in that game.

 

I don't know where u get the top 10 post defender in the league from? May I ask how do they rate Yao?

If u trust the Rocket's opinion, let me ask u a question? How many games this season did they pull Yao in favor of Chuck at the end of the game?

 

Can you please spell out you instead of using u? It's hard to read.

durvasa got that information straight from Morey's mouth on multiple occasions.

Coach will only do it if Chuck has played in the game.... so he hasn't done it as much this year as he did last.

 

I didnt say it but I agree with it. I hear it on national TV broadcasts all the time.

From what I gather watching national broadcasts of the Rockets, Yao is considered a very good post defender, especially involving true centers like Shaq or Howard. But he is a liabilty on pick n rolls.

Yao is only good on help defense(when his man isnt involved in the PnR) or on back to the basket defense. He isnt that good when his man faces up. He is terrible on PnR. Its not that hard to see. And when the options your opponent offers wont include help defense since his man will be involved in the PnR, then a player who excels defensively in the other 3 categories is the logical choice.

 

So if he says Yao is the best center in the league, you believe him? When he says Battier is an all-star, you believe him?
They are hyperboles for goodness sake.
He meant to say Chuck is a good defender, that is as far as you can take it.

You mean to tell me Chuck needs to warm up his defensive game?
Why the heck does a top 10 defensive player not even get on the floor in some games? It has to be one heck of an excuse!

 

He flat out said that Chuck is our best post defender. He said that Chuck is a top 10 defender at his position. Maybe he changed his mind in the past few months, I don't know. I do believe the Rockets still think very highly of Chuck's post defense. In my opinion, Chuck's post defense this season is even better than in previous years. Where he might have slipped is in his lateral quickness guarding out on the perimeter, but he's still very good out there for his position.

I don't think Morey ever said Battier was an all-star (he didn't come up with the title of that NYT piece). And I don't recall him saying (at least this season) that Yao is the best center in the league, though he could make that argument.

Because Scola and Landry are pretty good, and he just may be a bottom 10 offensive player.

 

I didn't say it was because he needed to warm up. It's, I believe, Adelman's personal opinion that you don't put a guy in for the first time of the night for a last second play.

I so said I wasn't going to argue with you anymore... but yet here I keep coming back to do it.

Ignoring the truth of the matter must make you feel better, maybe you're a 6'6" guy like Chuck and can't fathom being better defensively than a 7'6" guy like Yao... so you're projecting.

I maintain if Chuck wasn't as good as he is on defense he really doesn't have any right to be in the NBA. There has to be some reason other than he's a nice guy for him to stick on this team when so many others have not.

 

You are the one ignoring the the truths. I pointed out the hole in your stats and you danced around it.

I always said Chuck is a good defender. He is quick, he got good hands, he rebounds, he hustles, he takes charge and he busts his butts every second he is out there. He is better than Yao at guarding further away from the basket, he is better at guarding the PnR
BUT
He is not as good as Yao as guarding the low post. Beside the stats, you also ignore the fact that Adelman rarely ever pulled Yao for the last few plays of a game even when Chuck is available.

The last note about Chuck sticking around, you better go read up on Morey wanting to find a bigger defensive 4 but there was none available.

 

yao's post defense is really good just because of his sheer size. since now he gets fewer foul called against him if he goes straight up, it's become more obvious. his p&r defense has always been shaky due to his foot speed, and i don't expect much to change. but under adelman, his p&r defense has become even worse than his jvg days, since jvg stressed on that so much and yao had to chase these little guards all over the court.

hayes has always been a great overall defender. that's why even adelman, a coach who is long well-known for his philosophy that you just have to score back if they score on you, has had to put him in the game from time to time. the only weakness of hayes is his height - some bigs can just shoot over him and he can do nothing about it.

 

I was thinking RA should do it right after I saw Parker blow by Yao for a wide open lay up. If Yao's man (duncan in this case) is setting the pick for the guard then Yao is going to get blown by if we switch it. The Spurs love to let Parker do his thing with the pick and roll so we can't use Yao. If its going to be Duncan posting up then we need him, but in this case I personally like putting Hayes in for Yao, and it worked.

Stop thinking we always have to have Yao in for defense, if the matchup doesnt work then we should put in Hayes.

 

Thats debatable, but I will concede you that point. I will also concede to you that he is a better help defender when his man is not involved in the PnR. But Hayes is better at PnR. Hayes is also better against a faceup postman due to his footwork and hands.

But here is the deal, the Spurs have 3 ways to attack us with Duncan:

PnR with Parker: Hayes >>>>>> Yao

Post up in the lane: Yao > Hayes

Face up from the FT line extended: Hayes >>>> Yao

Why would you go with the player who is marginally better at one thing than the player who is better all around and doesnt give up as much in the area he is deficient in to the other player??

 

yao is really slow to protect the rim.

its smart to sub for him.