Take off the Rose-Colored Glasses--Is Griffin falling for Headfakes?

Not until after they laughed at you for asking the question....hehe.

anyhow, you do know I'm jealous of you guys. I started this thread, because I want people to evaluate Griffin's patience. Compare him to Stromile Swift. We want him to be a faster learner than Swift.

 

Griffin definitely looks to block pretty much every shot that comes his way. You watch him, especially when he's guarding the weakside, and his head is constantly watching the ball, making adjustments with his feet, and every couple of seconds he'll glance back to make sure his man hasn't moved to far. He'll stay with his man as long as possible just in case, but once he in convinced that the shooter is committed, he'll rush over and go for the block.

I'd say this is we're he gets 50-75% of his blocks, coming from the weakside. Guarding one on one, I think he's more prone to keep his feet on the ground, and put pressure on the ball. He'll still go for the block, but he's not Cato. Conversely, against Randolph, who was stronger, this strategy obviously wasn't really working too well. I think a lot of Griff's fouls were basically the Shaq effect. Randolph does strong move, makes contact with Griff... shot falls, and the refs whistle Griff for the contact...

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"There are three kinds of lies:
Lies, Damned Lies, and STATISTICS..."
- Mark Twain -

 

I honestly haven't watched Swift play enough to do a fair comparison... which is why I've been using Cato...

Cato to me, basically just loafs around, and when a shot goes up, he goes up strong. He seems very raw to me.

Not that Griffin isn't raw, but he seems so much more controlled, more deliberate, than Cato. Which is why I think he'll be more successful. He's constantly calculating his next move.


As for T-Mo, I'll tell you my priority as far as my watchful eye. First, I watch Griffin, cause he's who most people, including me, want to know about. He'll have the greatest long term effect on the team. Next, I watch Langhi, cause he's had the most impact probably in the summer leagues, and he may be poised to accept a legitimate role on the team. And then I watch T-Mo. Everyone else on the team is just filler. I don't expect any of them to make the team, except for Sean Colson perhaps, but they won't be a factor anyway.

So I do watch T-Mo. I don't think he's a bad player, he's just not spectacular. He's going to come into games, grab a couple of rebounds, his some baseline jumpers if the lane is clogged, maybe a 3 if we swing the ball well, and hopefully play solid defense while he's at it, maybe get a couple of blocks with his long frame. But the fact is that he's not going to be an impact player right now.

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"There are three kinds of lies:
Lies, Damned Lies, and STATISTICS..."
- Mark Twain -

 

After one game, Griffin definitely has a bad habit of jumping, imo.

I mean, we should pretty much *never* see him jump too early, if he is to be considered a controlled shot-blocker. He also jumped for stuff that he had no chance to get. Doing that can often takes you out of rebounding position, which we did see last night. I want him to stay down and box out for a rebound, if he can't challenge the shot.

So this is a Catch-22 though. To get a reputation for blocking shots out of nowhere, you need to block some first. Only then can you make driving guards alter their shots just by presence alone.

At this point, there is no reason for me to believe he'll play defense this year better than Stromile Swift did his first season.

I did like that turnaround jumper. He's way ahead of Swift on that.

 

On Morris, this is the summer league. For Pete's sake, Donyell Marshall is killing people out there! Let's put it into perspective.

On shot blocking, this is one of the reasons I'd prefer to see Griffin guarding 3's and outside players. IMO, he would be devastating as a weak side shotblocker who comes to help rather than a straight up defender a la Dream.

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Who's your buddy? Who's your pal? I am, aren't I?

 

TPL, I guess you saying "I didn't see him falling for headaches," is officially retracted.

when isn't falling for headfakes a problem. My point is we should not be seeing one per game. That is too many. And we saw more than that. Against veterans he will see many more people testing this habit. For every block he goes for with lateral movement, he gives up rebound position.

This is important to monitor, imo. And Game 1 that I've witnessed, he is showing overexuberance.

Why do you say Swift's defense was less polished that Griffin? There are no draft reports from last year that said Swift wasn't polished on defense. <a href="http://www.clutchcity.net/draft_profile.cfm?Player=3">Here is what Clutch said.</a> Let's not overrate Griffin's first year production based on long-range potential. We are just setting the kid up for a fall.

 

btw Clutch, go to google and type

"stromile swift" draft notes

You come up number 1...woohoo

 

I'd say your asking for a bit much by wanting a shotblocker to not bite on at least one headfake a game, regardless of the caliber of competition.

As far as Swift goes, I didn't judge him by draft reports that were written. My opinion of him came from seeing him in the tourney and live, and imo, he was a rawer product than Griffin is.

It seems that most feel Battier and Griffin were the only 2 players in this draft that could be expected to have an impact on the court their first seasons. You didn't hear the same about Swift. It was pretty widely known, imo, that he was a long term project, especially on the offensive end.

Griffin was 2nd in the nation in shotblocking while playing with Samuel Dalembert, a good shotblocker in his own right, who took away some blocked shots from him.

I never considered Stromile to be in the same class shotblocking wise as Griffin, because he just doesn't have the timing on his jumps that great shotblockers do.

I'm guessing maybe you see a little bit of Ratliff in Swift, and over time, he may get to that level shotblocking wise, but Griffin is already there in regards to timing on his jumps imo.

Then again, Adonal Foyle, in all his greatness, led mighty Colgate and the nation in shotblocking while in college, and it never translated to the pros.

The Foyle's, Swift's, and Dalembert's of the world, though having impressive shotblocking numbers in college, are all project shotblockers. Griffin is not.

Call him an anomaly if you wish, but don't go by precedent in prognosticating what kind of impact he'll have defensively.

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I am the legend of 1900

[This message has been edited by tacoma park legend (edited July 27, 2001).]

 

There's no doubt in my mind that, at this point, he's much more effective as a weakside help defender than strait up one-on-one guy...

That's where he gets more of his blocks...



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"There are three kinds of lies:
Lies, Damned Lies, and STATISTICS..."
- Mark Twain -

 

point taken about precedence.

Sorry, I meant we shouldn't be seeing "more than one per game"--especially in the RMR. My point is that that overexuberance against rookies and scrub competitors with amplify against vets.

2 headfakes per game in the pros will leave you riding the pine.

 

One thing that disturbs me is that I think Eddie's concentration and poise on the defensive end has been progressively slipping ever since he started focusing more on offense....

Maybe he's just not nervous anymore or something, but it's like... all the sudden he doesn't feel quite as much like he has something to prove, and his focus has eased up...

Hopefully he's just had a couple of off games, but he's looking less crisp than the first 2 games...

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"There are three kinds of lies:
Lies, Damned Lies, and STATISTICS..."
- Mark Twain -

 

Last night the commentators said he is tiring. Not sure how much stock we can place in that argument, "He's never played a long season before," when we are in July. lol.

 

Like another poster mentioned, I think it was Jeff, the Rockets will likely use him as a rotating weakside shotblocking threat, not a man to man shotblocker like Dream was. In other words, even if he does have a tendency to go for everything, teams won't be able to exploit it easily in the regular season.

I think playing with Dream, or even Cato, will make him that much more effective, and likely lessen the possibility of him getting into early foul trouble, because from what I've seen, he doesn't get into foul trouble when playing help defense, but rather straight up man because he likes to reach over the top. He doesn't always keep his hands straight up.

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Eddie probably is tiring or is bored playing with these losers on the summerteam. Eddie and Langhi were giving alot of high fives and griffin was spanking langhi on couple plays. Maybe the next Cuttino and Francis.

Griffin could of got alot of those plays where they went for easy layups but he didint. I dont know why but I know he could of got easily 3 more blocks. He doesnt have to try to block , he barley jumps up and blocks it easily. I remember Stevenson came for a shot inside and try to pump fake it and griffin put his hands up and knocked it out of bounds. With Griffin and old hakeem in the frontline , we got a pretty good defense up front. Twin Towers are back.

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"The girls danced, started fondling me, I got aroused, they performed oral sex," Ewing said. "I hung around a little bit and talked to them, then I left."

 

Sounds kind of dumb to say that he's tiring... but there was talk that his wind wasn't up to par early on... Don't know if that's actually the case, but it would help explain what's been going on...

Who knows... it's almost more disturbing if it IS his wind... But I guess there's not a thing we can do but wait and see...

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"There are three kinds of lies:
Lies, Damned Lies, and STATISTICS..."
- Mark Twain -

 

A tired Griffin is still the best Shotblocker we have on the team.

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"The girls danced, started fondling me, I got aroused, they performed oral sex," Ewing said. "I hung around a little bit and talked to them, then I left."

 

so, TPL, is there such thing as a "rotating, weakside" 10 rebounds per game player.

Why are we making this big deal about "weakside" versus one-on-one defender. He WILL BE a one-on-one defender. It is not like Rudy has a choice in placing a defender weakside or strongside. The point is will Rudy use Griffin as an eraser or a weakside surprise like Horry.

We need him in the middle if he is a great defender. Our guards need erasers to drive their man into. You don't drive people into weakside defenders. Don't even try that logic. Weakside blocks are moments of opportunity...you don't have Griffin in practice guarded the arc on the weakside and tell Mobley on the strongside...just turn your man into Griffin. He can run 15' and get him.

The other problem with turning him into an Horry-type defender is he that he rebounds better than Horry. Do you really want the offense to draw him away from the basket like Horry did against Rodman in '95. I think I'd rather have him in prime rebounding position (at least eventually) than expect him to rebound just as well while placing him outside for shotblocking to cover up his habit to go for lateral-moving blocks.

oh, and you can't mention Shawn Marion, because that is "precedence prognostication" to presume we will see a wing player rebound like that freak of nature Marion anytime soon.

We moved Horry away from the basket, but didn't need rebounding. We need rebounding. If his rebounding is as stellar as his shotblocking, then I don't want him on the outside....I want to feature him in prime rebounding position as much as possible.

Of course, if he is not strong enough, we must move him out. Anyhow, weakside shotblocking is not a great thing. That is a surprise tactics for Robert Horry and the Rashard's of this world. Great shotblockers should be featured in the lane to intimidate shots. Altering shots is as important as blocking them. You cannot really alter shots coming weakside as a surprise.

Altering shots without jumping first is the sign of a great shotblocker. It allows them to intimidate in help defense w/o losing rebounding position.

 

You know, these two summer leagues in a row have been like an extended road trip. It is hard to sleep well on the road. Hasn't it been about 3 weeks between L.A. and S.L.C.?

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Statistical Reasons to Not Place Griffin Outside

There are 16 power forwards with 8 or more rpg. There are only 3 small forwards.

Statistical precedence shows that if you want Griffin to grab more than 8 pg, you don't want to feature him as an Horry-type weakside defender (whatever that is).

I certainly hope that we are going to place in down low. We need a rebounder and an eraser...not Horry.

 

More Stats that Defenders/Rebounders are not on the Outside

There are 15 power forwards with 7 rpg and 1 bpg.

There are 4 perimeter players with 7 rpb and 1 bpg.

If you expect Griffin to put up 7 and 1 from the outside, then you are putting him in the same league as Odom, McGrady, Marion, and Clearance Weatherspoon. Three of those guys are atypical players for their position...freaks!

Maybe he can do the Weatherspoon thing, since Mashburn was more a SF for that team, but bottomline is, don't you really want better numbers than 7 and 1 from him.

If you better than 7 and 1 from Griffin, and you are already conceded him to the outside, you are setting him up to fail your expectations.