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Take 2:What should the United States do about the independence of Kosovo?

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by weslinder, Feb 17, 2008.

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What should the US do about the independence of Kosovo?

  1. Recognize an independent Kosovo and support it militarily and financially.

    26.2%
  2. Recognize an independent Kosovo and support it financially but not militarily.

    14.3%
  3. Recognize and independent Kosovo but not support it financially or militarily.

    40.5%
  4. Do not recognize the independence of Kosovo.

    19.0%
  1. jello77

    jello77 Member

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    you're actually completely right on this. it's a shame and an embarrassment that nikolic had so many votes. however, his campaign was very effective in that in played on a lot of serbian fears--namely, that the west does not care about serbia at all and that we will be relegated to a third world country. it's understandably a little bit difficult for some people to see through this and it's a triumph of sorts that the majority of serbs voted to go pro-west--even though in instances like this one and by the comments many are making, the west is not at all pro-serbia.

    as for your question kingcheetah, if we have to separate the two, i'm not sure how it makes sense to forcefully remove serbs from their own country. in much the same way the united states will be predominantly hispanic in the near future, that is how kosovo became predominantly albanian (albeit with a lot more fighting and crimes committed by both sides). if hypothetically, hispanic immigirants and americans began fighting, do you think the usa would let texas secede because there is a majority hispanic, for the 'good of the region'? i really don't think so.

    maybe that's a far off example (i am in no way implying anything), but you see what i am getting at. this argument has a lot more elements than many are looking at. we'll see where this situation goes from here, but i'm not sure there is much good that's going to come out of it, especially for serbia and her people.
     
  2. KingCheetah

    KingCheetah Atomic Playboy
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    This is a good point -- I think that our history is so short in comparison to that of Europe it is certainly possible there may be another civil war here. If world history is an indicator it's only a matter of time, but hopefully the transition will continue to be relatively smooth.
     
  3. pippendagimp

    pippendagimp Member

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    I will just add that in my conversations with ethnic Albanians in Kosova......before yesterday and likely today as well, autonomous independence was not the real goal for them. They in fact have wanted to become a part of Albania proper all along. Not to be a separate country.

    So now after some time if Kosova ends up as a failed state, it would not be surprising at all for Albania to simply annex the territory in accordance with the inhabitants wishes. And the EU/US/NATO will have essentially taken territory from one country and let it become part of another's borders.
     
  4. surrender

    surrender Member

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    As a rule, I'm generally for further self-governance, so I tentatively support Kosovo's independence. However, I hope the new government respects the rights of the Serbian minority remaining there.
     
  5. madmonkey37

    madmonkey37 Member

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    Quit reaching.

    A recent United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP) report giving field measurements taken around selected impact sites in Kosovo (Federal Republic of Yugoslavia) indicates that contamination by DU in the environment was localized to a few tens of metres around impact sites. Contamination by DU dusts of local vegetation and water supplies was found to be extremely low. Thus, the probability of significant exposure to local populations was considered to be very low.

    Considering the US military has close ties to the Albanian Military, I wouldn't be suprised if the US offered military assistance to Kosovo.
     
    #45 madmonkey37, Feb 18, 2008
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2008
  6. pippendagimp

    pippendagimp Member

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    About the only thing all the bickering repubs & dems here can agree on is that the UN is an irrelevant corrupt futile sham of an organization with less credibility than MacBeth. In other words, no soup for you.
     
  7. ymc

    ymc Member

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    Well, the root of UN's problem is that it is a paper tiger. There won't be justice in world politics until UN has a standing military and every country is demilitarized. :cool:
     
  8. madmonkey37

    madmonkey37 Member

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    Great Reponse. I'm sure these "repubs & dems" you speak of are a lot more credible.
     
  9. pippendagimp

    pippendagimp Member

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    I agree my response to you was indeed lacking in the pizzazzz you would normally expect. But then again you provided an excerpt without any link and more importantly, without any date as well.

    It had been well documented from hundreds of sources following the Bosnia/Kosova conflicts that DU was affecting not only local populations but even the actual NATO soldiers themselves. Here's an example:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1104087.stm

    So yes, for the UN to go there at some point afterwards and proclaim that everything's probably going to be fine and dandy does in fact have less relevance than a catfight between Romney Hugger #43 and Clinton Groupie #65.
     
  10. madmonkey37

    madmonkey37 Member

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    That particular excerpt came from the World Health Organization. http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs257/en/index.html

    But the actual report can be found here. http://www.who.int/ionizing_radiation/pub_meet/en/Report_WHO_depleted_uranium_Eng.pdf

    The factsheet was updated in 2003 and the report was made in 2001. Until the portuguese release their findings, I find those sources a lot more credible then a one page BBC article, though dated.

    Even if DU munitions are found to have caused cancer, the point is moot, since you haven't exactly explained how the use of controversial munitions on legitimate military targets constitutes a warcrime.
     
  11. pippendagimp

    pippendagimp Member

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    Uhhh, i couldn't find the excerpt you posted in either link. And the second seems to be 43 pages of repetitive reiteration about how they weren't able to conclusively conclude anything about anything. In any case, here's an article detailing just how much of a joke the UNEP is:


    http://www.commondreams.org/views01/0131-05.htm


    [Since NATO’s bombing ended in June 1999, a number of reports from international agencies have examined the environmental impact of the NATO bombing. In several instances, these studies have supported NATO’s contention that the consequences are negligible. In the first visit of the United Nations Environmental Program to Serbia weeks after the attacks ended, the agency declared they found no negative impact of the use of depleted uranium. When asked what methodology was used to search for DU contamination, the head of the delegation, Pekka Havisto, said they had taken random soil samples in Serbia. Scientists here say that’s like trying to find a needle in a haystack. Rather than publicizing the fact that NATO refused to provide the UNEP with a map of areas targeted by DU munitions, the agency elected to declare it had found no significant health risks.

    “The United Nations tried to diminish or reduce the scope and negative environmental impacts of the NATO campaign,” says Professor Pavlovic.]


    This same article also highlights NATO's deliberate targeting of non-military chemical plants and oil refineries in Serbia with the intent of causing widespread environmental damage such as contaminating chief water supplies. A couple years later the US had to bribe countries all over the globe such as Romania in order to gain immunity from the Intl Criminal Court, which incidentally is independent of the UN.

    I'm sorry you didn't like the BBC article. There are dozens of other sources providing similar reporting on leukemia cases and "Balkan Syndrome" should you endeavor to search them out.
     
  12. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Member
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    Even if you ignore all the basic radiochemistry evidence which indicates less radioactivity than raw uranium ore, and a very low chemical toxicity for depleted uranium and create some magic mechanism how it hurt everybody, for the people behind Srebrenicia to flip out about the USA as evil war criminals for bombing infrastructure is absurd.

    As soon as NATO rounds up thousands of noncombatant Serbs with the express intent of killing them in cold blood and hiding their bodies in mass graves, you might actually have something to talk about. As soon as NATO troops start raping Serbian women with the encouragement of their commanders, you might actually have something to talk about.

    It’s worse than the Japanese who claim the greatest war crime of WWII occurred at Nagasaki after they led the rape of Nanking. It’s more absurd than the Germans b****ing about the USA using shotguns in the trenches in WWI as they were unleashing phosgene attacks on the Americans at the same locations. Any NATO crimes in Serbia were misdemenors compared to what the Serbians themselves did.

    I've known lots of Nazi sympathiser types who b**** on and on about all the war crimes commited by the USA durring WWII, as if Germany was somehow getting a bad rap. You sound just like them.
     
  13. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Member

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    Why is the US sticking our necks out in a region that will certainly become a hotbed for destabilization and violence? It's like we're deliberately pissing off the Russians and Chinese.
     
  14. madmonkey37

    madmonkey37 Member

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    You must work on your reading skills then. Its the second bullet under "Exposure to uranium and depleted uranium".

    I just read the article you quoted. The first thing that popped out at me was the source of the article,Common Dreams Newscenter - Breaking News and Views for the Progressive Community. Sounds very unbiased, doesn't it?

    I could go out and read about all these reported cases of leukemia and "Balkan Syndrome" from DU munitions, but I would find just as many articles, not to mention actual studies, refuting those assertations.

    Heres a summary of a case study done by RAND.

    In this paper, written for a conference on &ldquo:Unacceptable Weapons” at MIT, the author gives an in-depth history of the concern over depleted uranium (DU) weapon fragments as a cause of illness in injured Gulf War veterans and in those exposed to depleted uranium projectiles during the wars in the Balkans. There has been extensive distortion in the media and on the Internet concerning the effects of DU, but the facts do not warrant such scare tactics.Sound, objective research by RAND, the World Health Organization, the Institute of Medicine, and the National Academy of Sciences has shown that exposure to DU does not produce any medically detectable effects. The author concludes that the full and unbiased presentation of the facts to governments around the world has resulted in the continued use of DU — even in the face of concerted actions by some to distort the facts and media often more interested in shock value than in presenting the truth.

    http://www.rand.org/pubs/papers/P8066/

    If you have 18 dollars to burn you can read it or you can attack its credibility and bring up an article from another left leaning website.

    The targeting of a countries military industrial complex doesn't constitute war crimes either, regardless of the environmental impact.
     
  15. pippendagimp

    pippendagimp Member

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    Lemme guess now......you were Romney Hugger #14 in a previous life. In any case I have no interest in engaging in banter over whether Right-leaning articles hold more water than Left-leaning one's or vice versa. Especially considering Clinton was Commander-in-Chief and Wes Clark was Supreme Nato Commander leading the Kosovo/Serbia attack anyways.

    We can also go back and forth about how deadly DU is or not and whether it's use is merely controversial or should in fact constitute a war crime. You choose to ignore the recorded leukemia cases of NATO's own soldiers, I don't. I choose to ignore branches of the UN (such as the ICJ) declaring DU to be fair game, and you don't. We have reached an impasse of sorts for now. But still I would like to ask you how you would feel if terr'ists were to attack US targets, in some of our major cities perhaps, with weapons that disperse DU. Would it make you any more concerned or upset than if it were just the conventional suicide bombs?
     
  16. pippendagimp

    pippendagimp Member

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    Errr, not sure what's gotten into you but in this thread the usually rational Ottomaton has gone MIA. Telling me I sound just like a Nazi sympathiser? For acknowledging the obvious reality that war crimes and atrocities were committed against Serbs as well? The Croatian war crimes against Serbs have already been well documented, with several Croatian military leaders having been tracked down and brought to justice over the years. And even Bosnian war hero Atif Dudakovic is largely considered to have been a war criminal against Serbs as well.

    Also you refuse to distinguish between the Serb civilian population and Serb military. It's as if you believe all Serbs have EVIL programmed into their DNA and condoned/aided everything Milosovic's crew was doing.

    The fact is more than three quarters of a million Serbs were displaced from Bosnia/Croatia/Kosova. And they did not just leave of their own free will.

    And btw, you have really gone too far by trying to compare me (or any other poster here) to Nazi sympathizers. My Godmother was a Jewish prisoner at Buchenwald so I really don't want to hear this sort of BS from you again.
     
  17. Dubious

    Dubious Member

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    At one time, when the destructive powers of nations were building, tribes coalesced into circles of common interest for mutual defense. The more powerful nations used their power to build empires. Now, in the atomic age the pinnacle of destructive force has been rendered impotent. You can't use nukes. And the only world super power is slowly becoming less domineering.



    http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/02/18/opinion/edbowring.php


    What about all the other Kosovos?
    By Philip Bowring

    Monday, February 18, 2008
    HONG KONG: The Balkans may be a long way from Asia but the word "Balkanization" is still etched in the minds of many leaders, particularly those who lived through the years of instability that followed decolonization.

    Though the issue of Kosovo is not attracting too much public comment in Asia, it is a worry for those who ponder the implications for countries struggling with separatist minorities of their own.

    They note that while the original break-up of Yugoslavia resulted from internal forces, the independence of Kosovo was made possible because the United States and the European Union supported this dismemberment of Serbia. Whether this is the result of idealism or is regarded as punishment for Serbia's actions during the Milosevic era does not matter from the point of view of those not directly involved.

    Indonesia and Sri Lanka have said that they will not recognize Kosovo's independence. China and Vietnam insist that any solution must not compromise the territorial integrity of Serbia. Most other Asian official reaction is similarly likely to be negative.

    There are two issues here from an Asian perspective. The first is how far the principle of self-determination should be taken. Kosovo is a landlocked state of 2 million people, 10 percent of whom are Serbs strongly opposed to its independence.

    The second is to ask when and where the process of dismemberment of former empires will end. After all, the very word "Balkanization" derives from the break-up of the Balkan territory of two empires, Ottoman and Austro-Hungarian, into 10 states.

    It may be that the nature of the European Union can allow many mini-states to exist within a broader political entity, and that Kosovo is as viable as Luxembourg. Just possibly, the EU can be successor to the former Ottoman and Hapsburg empires, embracing all states of the Balkans, big and small.

    Possibly. But none of that is much consolation to other regions of the world which do not possess equivalents to the EU. Since 1945, if not earlier, they have mostly lived with two concepts: First, the nation state as accepted by their peers at the United Nations; second, borders defined by their histories as parts of Western empires.

    Thus far there have been remarkably few post-colonial formal splits. The major one was the creation of Bangladesh out of an untenable Pakistan divided by a thousand miles and an equally large cultural gap. Singapore's separation from Malaysia was peaceful. Eritrea's from Ethiopia was not.

    But African and Asian nations still worry deeply about national integrity. The end of formal Western empires (most recently the Russian one) is still far too close for successor nations to be confident that their borders will survive. So they are particularly sensitive when they find the West instinctively supporting separatist movements, even if only verbally.

    Whether the issue is Darfur, West Papua, Nagaland or the Shan states, the old colonial powers are often seen on the side of difficult minorities opposed to the central governments the powers themselves created.

    Nor does it appear, at least from a distance, that an independent Kosovo offers even a sensible solution to the problem of linguistic nations divided from their national state. Logic would surely be the partition of Kosovo between Albania and Serbia, rather than the creation of another mini-state with another disgruntled minority.

    Many in the rest of the world do not even credit the West with good intentions, noting that some influential voices in Western capitals would be happy to see Iraq divided into three states, Shiite, Sunni and Kurd.

    Even if they appreciate that the European Union and the United States are trying to solve problems rather than introduce new divide-and-rule stratagems, they worry.

    Take Sri Lanka. Kosovo logic suggests that the Tamils in the north deserve a separate state, an eventuality that would have huge implications for an India which can only exist if its major constituent parts - be they Tamil, Sikh or Bengali - accept an overriding identity and the benefits of diversity and size.

    None of this is to argue that minority rights do not matter - that China can suppress Tibet and (Turkic) Xinjiang, that Russia can brutalize Chechnya, thatThailand can submit its Malay/Muslim minority to alien laws and language, and so on.

    But for most of Africa and Asia the issue is sustaining states capable of delivering administration and a stable basis for development. As Kenya shows, even in states without overt separatist problems and with some success in economic development, the over-riding problem remains integrating diverse peoples into states.

    Kosovo's independence may be the last act in the Balkanization of former empires. But it also looks like a victory for tribalism and creates a principle which can only exacerbate problems in other countries. In place of acceptance of minority autonomy within a single state structure there will be fights to the bitter end between centralism and separatism.
     
    #57 Dubious, Feb 19, 2008
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2008
  18. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Member
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    I know tons of Germans. I'm great friends with many people whose parents were members of the Wehrmacht. Adolf Hitler never had more than about 40% of the popular vote. The Germans who aknowledge and accepted the crimes and that Germany was in the wrong after the war were/are great people. Those who continue to try and deny responsiblility and say 'but the Allies commited warcrimes too' are something else.

    I have no problems with people like jello77 who aren't interested in defending the past. In fact, he makes a pretty rational case for Kosovo. But as long as there are people who try and deny the massive, systematic nature of Serbian war crimes, then the Albanians in Kosovo need to be protected.

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    #58 Ottomaton, Feb 19, 2008
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2008
  19. ymc

    ymc Member

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    I think they will enter a Union with Albania. That's the only way they can be part of UN and to be sustainable.

    But I would think war will definitely break out if that Union happens.
     
  20. Dubious

    Dubious Member

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    It could be that that the EU supports Kosovo until there is a government in place that can negotiate long term contracts. Then the muti-nationals can come in and exploit the vast coal reserves to counter (somewhat) the Russian policy of energy extortion in Eastern Europe.

    All you needed was a western friendly government and Kosovo can go from a backwater to a boomtown.

    War? pffft! We are already working on that:

    Protesters Oppose Plan to Expand American Base in Northern Italy

    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/18/world/europe/18italy.html
     

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