Take 2:What should the United States do about the independence of Kosovo?

Honest question, because I think it fits your description of the nature of conflict and it is the best analogy that I can think of to what the Serbs were trying to do in Bonsia and Kosovo. Would you be good if the Israelis just lined up all the Palestinians who haven't already left Israel and shot them?

 

Ottomaton,

If you ask all the non-Israelis in the eastern Mediterranean, they will squarely place the blame for all the region's problems on Jews as well. And of course this is not fair but this is what the overwhelming majority there will say. But as mentioned in my previous post, there are always two sides to such stories (such as the 230k Serbs displaced from Kosovo and 500k from Bosnia/Croatia by year 2000).

The actual Kosova land itself is as prime a property as you can get, resource-wise. Lignite, lead, zinc, silver, nickel, chrome, bauxite, precious metals/gems - you name it they got it. One of my cousin's immediate family owns one of the largest bauxite mining co's in the world. They had been trying to get access to Kosova for years and will now be able to begin concentrating further mining development away from Romania and towards Kosova thanks to their years of greasing the right people in Washington and Brussels (you see they actually had to "out-bid" other co's waiting in line for the Independence Day Bonanza). Who says hard work and persistence doesn't pay off! In Kosova they will now have reduced taxation, far cheaper labor, and lax environmental controls.

I actually had met a lot of Albanians before any other group from the region. A lot of the residential buildings in Manhattan have doormen of Albanian descent. And they, the Croats, the Slovenes, etc - they all think that they are the best. They all think they have the best food, best music, best athletes, hottest women, etc, etc.

 

Not sure why you included such an inflammatory question at the end of your post -- I would hope that no one would support such an act. I don't think it is completely relevant to the discussion unless you feel genocide is what is in fact happening in the region.

To answer the question -- it is too late for Israel to attempt to remove the Palestinians -- if it was going to take place it should have happened at the time of the initial conflict IMO. Situation over there would obviously be much better for both sides today if Israel had pushed them out, but now they must find the answer through peace. However, there may come a time when it gets so bad over there that Israel may have to go to war and force the Palestinians from there current territory. Of course the coin could flip and the Palestinians may be the ones doing the displacing, but that isn't happening anytime soon.

 

Because that is what the Serbians did. Systematically move to towns with Albanians and if the Albanians couldn't get away fast enough they killed them after raping them and beating them. They said, "Get out or we'll kill you" and then followed through when people didn't get out. They killed old women and children. That is what I am talking about when I say ethnic cleansing. If you think that it is more accurate to say that the Serbs preformed genocide on the Albanians, well then I apologize for mistaking the terms. My thought would be that since they were only interested in killing Albanians who were on land that they wanted (not wipe out Albanians worldwide) it wouldn't qualify as genocide. Of course I may be wrong.

But what happened in Kosovo and what I described are analogous as I see it - if you are still here when we come around, you die.

 

But why do you believe it was so cut and dry as how you've posted, especially if you've never even spoke with any Albanians yet?

Also i made an error in the last post......not bauxite mining, but soda ash production....oh well..

 

Well, that was the Serbian pattern in Bosnia (I have heard first hand accounts of this, including one Dutch peacekeeper who was at Srebrenica) and that is what is in all the UN and NGO reports on war crimes in the Kosovar War. I also didn't see the war first hand, but I am willing to accept accounts that it occured.

 

What were seeing around the world right now -- well have been seeing and will continue to see -- is the disintegration of many of the states that were created by the powers after the first two world wars. Forcing ethnic groups that can't stand one another under one government/ one border when they have fought for centuries to define those borders and leaders is a recipe for failure.

 

what do you mean "support it financially"?

i voted option 2, to recognize it and support it financially, but not with the military. but if by financial support you mean have out government send it money then "I've made a terrible mistake," and should have voted option 3.

 

It never ceases to amaze me how singular events -- in hindsight -- helped change the course of history. One small turn -- however small or seemingly insignificant -- can alter the rolling 'snowball' of history and change the course of human civilization. I don't think the average person appreciates that fact.

Carry on...

 

We should get the hell out of there and Central Asia. It's the birthplace of world wars and this incident might start another regional bloodfest.

Let the EU pretend how mighty they are by taking Kosovo in its wing, and we'll see if their bite is as bad as their bark...

If they want us to be involved, it should entail a security or financial commitment in helping us out of Iraq. We should not play willing fools just because of the hype of fostering a democracy.

 

Kosovo is really of no strategic importance to the U.S. national interests. I don't understand why Clinton administration got in there in the first place. If it was during the Cold War maybe you can justify it, but in this age it doesn't make any sense for the U.S. to get involved, espeicially with military intervention.

An indepdent Kosovo is good for peace in that region in the long term. However, in the short term there will be tension and perhaps conflict. The U.S. should support Kosovo independence but not make any promises that it can not deliver. The situation will hopefully sort itself out.

 

In the entropy of nations, someday every contiguous ethnic group will be it's own mini-state. Scotland, Kurdistan, Tamil, Maoistan in India. In complexity there is stability; limited casualty border skirmishes will replace the massive violence of World Wars.

Only the totally homogeneous and totally nonhomogeneous nations wil remain intact as world powers.

Hurst, Eueless and Bedford will be Evangelica.

 

There are still over 15,000 Nato troops stationed in Kosovo so I don't think the military presence is going away in the near future.

 

Oceania is at war with Eurasia. Oceania has always been at war with Eurasia.

 

i'm serbian, so my opinion is obviously going to be disregarded, but i don't think kosovo declaring independence is good for anybody. from an emotional standpoint, kosovo is the birthplace of my people--serbs are the ones being forced out right now.

slobodan milosevic was the worst kind of human garbage--but what people do not seem to understand is that there were so many people who opposed him for an entire rule. despite what you may read, he was not really an elected president. serbs just voted boris tadic, a 'pro-west' president, over a guy named tomislav nikolic, who was a nationalist milosevic guy. this is a sign that serbia is opening up to the west and the people do not want to go through what we've been through the last 20 years. the entire country went from a force in the world to slip to a second-world country and is only now finding its feet. trust me--the serbian people as a whole did not benifit from any kind of wars or killing that may have took place (on ALL sides i might add).

as far as kosovo not being good for anyone but the ethnic albanians claiming independence--russia, greece, and some scattered eu countries are against independence, as china will be. the big west countries, such as the us, uk, and others are for it. i'm not sure how the us profits from a business sense, but i'm not sure how it helps them (us, actually, as I am a proud u.s. citizen) to take a position on such a divisive issue. allowing kosovo to gain independence sets a dangerous precedent that many groups around the world can and will take advantage of. this is not a good thing, but i am praying every night this won't escalate into violence. my family has lost way too much already.

not that it matters, since apparently 'pretty much nobody in the world has sympathy for serbs except for russia'. i thought the serbs were the racists?

 

You should read the entire thread dialogue first before making posts.

 

After WWII, nobody had sympathy for the Germans except a few scattered countries. That didn't make the world racist against Germans. I think the Serbs through their leaders have earned their lack of sympathy.

As you say, a pro EU leader was just elected. But the war criminal Nikolić recieved 47.97% of the vote as the loser and he beat Tadić in the first round of voting. It sounds to me like there are still a whole lot of Serbs who don't share your peaceful viewpoint.

 

If keeping the peace in Kosovo requires 15,000 Nato troops -- shouldn't the losers of the war be forced out for the greater good of the region?

From the outside looking in it appears that Albanians and Serbs have such a long lasting hatred of each other that the only option is separation of the two groups.

 

I see your point Ottomaton.....but as we both know, the victors are allowed to write the history of conflicts from their own selective memory. The KLA was also guilty of war crimes such as murder/rape, particularly following NATO occupation of Kosova after Serb military forces had retreated. And now today Kosova's Prime Minister is an ex-KLA paramilitary leader who had been previously sentenced to 10 years prison for terrorist activity. Hell, in the eyes of many even NATO is guilty of war crimes in Kosova due to the use of depleted uranium in civilian areas. And I understand one of Croatia's biggest hurdles to EU membership has been its refusal to hand over previous military leaders who are suspected war criminals. The point is all sides were and are still guilty to some degree, including the Serbs of course. I don't think it was as cookie-cutter Evil vs. Good as you are stating..