Keep repeating that. Maybe stick your fingers in your ears and say, "NaNaNaNaNaNaNaNa", whenever someone post facts that you don't like. Maybe rock backwards and forwards repetitively for a bit. I'm sure that will make it true. I hear it works great for 5-year-olds.
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British Colonies? Absolutely. Dutch or French colonies? Not so much. And as you have pointed out, the USA isn't the same thing as any of the nascent forms that came before it. For instance, in addition to the native language of English, the British colonies also were subjects of the King of England. Do these qualities of the colonies transfer to the USA, or is it only the qualities that you find convenient?
While I personally prefer the secular liberal model though you are still making a value judgement based upon your own biases. Many muslims have made the argument that those secular values are immoral and degrading to human dignity. You are arguing for your sets of values as a universal when the fact that they aren't universally shared shows that that isn't necessarily the case. I'm not an expert on Sharia law and I may be mistaken but I don't believe honor killings are part of Sharia law. Taking this back though to the original subject again if fairness and respect is the issue clearly the Swiss situation isn't fair or respectful to Muslims. In this case then to fall back to saying that Western Values are superior to Islamic because of the values you list would show show that not to be the case and an argument regarding assimilation comparing the two is very apt.
I am sure the immigrants do realize they will have problems and accept that as the price to pay. That doesn't mean they shouldn't fight for fair treatment. I think this a dangerous rationalization for discrimination. I know you'd be fine with that. That doesn't make it any better. As for it being THEIR country, if that was a sufficient argument, there'd be no point to this thread at all. We're not Swiss. But, we don't take that line of reasoning when we talk about the Taliban. Besides, we were talking about whether it was a good idea or a bad one, which anyone can have an opinion on. Finally, my sister lives in Switzerland as an immigrant non-citizen. She isn't Muslim, at least, but Swiss public policy does have an impact on my own family. Besides that, it is an issue that might crop up in France because of its success in Switzerland. There I can vote. So, it is worth having an opinion on. If you think this is a defensible position for a country that is supposed to be, in rhad's words, "accomodating of civil rights, tolerance, and justice," I just don't know what to tell you. We'll tolerate you as long as you're Swiss? Is that what western democracy is really about? I do think it is a bad thing if it so colors your perception that you can't have a dialogue, which is what has happened here. Don't you even notice the irony in this assertion? The government that protects individual liberties just told individuals they are not free to build minarets. The government that is supposed to tolerate religions just told all their Muslim residents that it is afraid of them and do not welcome them in the country.
So when I would the consider the language of the United States Declaration of Independence, the The United States Constitution and their framers and authors to be the native language of the United States of America. It's quite simple.
"So when" what? One thing I've learned is that if some fact of life seems "quite simple" it is probably wrong and a deliberate oversimplification for the simple minded who can't stand ambiguity and place comfort in having things spelled out for them. But there is no law that requires you to be correct. You are free to place your belief in whatever fallacies make you feel comfortable. The only caveat is that you don't get to impose them on everybody else. But in your own little United States of You, make English your official language.
You cant handle the truth. Sucks for you. I never typed the word official or referred to official anything. But I will make common sense official so I guess you are out of luck.
I saw this the other day. You just kind of reminded me of it: [rquoter] "So take right now, for example, there is a right-wing populist uprising. It's very common, even on the left, to just ridicule them, but that's not the right reaction. If you look at those people and listen to them on talk radio, these are people with real grievances. I listen to talk radio a lot and it's kind of interesting. If you can sort of suspend your knowledge of the world and just enter into the world of the people who are calling in, you can understand them. I've never seen a study, but my sense is that these are people who feel really aggrieved. These people think, "I've done everything right all my life, I'm a god-fearing Christian, I'm white, I'm male, I've worked hard, and I carry a gun. I do everything I'm supposed to do. And I'm getting shafted." And in fact they are getting shafted. For 30 years their wages have stagnated or declined, the social conditions have worsened, the children are going crazy, there are no schools, there's nothing, so somebody must be doing something to them, and they want to know who it is. Well Rush Limbaugh has answered - it's the rich liberals who own the banks and run the government, and of course run the media, and they don't care about you—they just want to give everything away to illegal immigrants and gays and communists and so on..." [/rquoter] So I apologize for ridiculing you, Mr. Dissatisfied Right-Winger. I understand that the world has been very difficult for you, and I'm sorry that you feel so threatened and cheated. I hope eventually things get better and the world becomes less confusing and threatening.
Some good points JV. To follow up on your post one of the problem that I see with European countries seeking to ban symbols and practices of Islam and other religions is that it becomes self-defeating. The fear that is trotted out when these bans are made is of wild eyed radicals destroying their western post Christian culture yet by banning and supressing those religions it radicalizes the very populations they are trying to get to assimilate by driving them underground and embittering them towards the majority.
The Swiss simply found a loop-hole. Minarets are not religious and are technically cultural (turkish?) than anything else. Fortunately for the Swiss, Minarets are viewed by many as "Islamic Architecture" so now they get to stick it to Muslims but get away with it due to the technicality. Well played Switzerland.
Here's the problem with your argument. Switzerland's backyard is for people who live in Switzerland. Switzerland is not claiming to be a "non-Muslim" backyard. So why should people of a specific religion have to adapt? Now I know what you're thinking. "Why does Saudi Arabia not allow churches to be built?". That's cause the Saudi's are a bunch of asses who will outright claim that their backyard is Muslim only. I don't agree with that but what can you do? But when a country that doesn't claim to be of a certain religion suddenly bans something from a specific religion, then it's clearly anti-[enter religion here] or the majority genuinely does not like the artistic style of that architecture. I'm willing to bet a twinky that it's not the latter.
Well, I think they just don't like large towers that don't fit into their architectural style. They could ban the building of all religious churches etc....if that is what the majority wants, it is their country, if people don't like it they are free to leave and go elsewhere. DD
I thinks it's funny that non-muslim countries are supposed to be tolerant and people get their panties in a wad when they aren't but when the roles are reversed, for whatever reason, it's not right "but what can you do?"
do you even know what you're talking about? do you realize that the middle east (excluding holy lands in parts of saudi arabia) is probably THE MOST tolerant region for Christians in the entire world? did you ever live there? NO. well I did, Masterbaiter, for 15 years, and I've seen nothing but tolerance and coexistence. the hell you're talking about when "the roles are reversed"? do you have even the slightest of grasps on world cultures? some of you guys are ridiculously ignorant, and are damn proud being so. starting with DaDakota (who never responds when he gets called out) and going down the list.
I respond, but not to people who call others ridiculously ignorant.....because their opinion is different. DD
