Supreme Court rules for former coach in public school prayer case

Pronouns suck.

 

I don't feel that the the coach's actions violated the separation of church and state and am not that bothered by this ruling but agree the court breakdown on this continues to erode the standing of the court.

 

This ruling is awful. This is not the case of the coach praying silently on their own. He's actively leading prayers at the 50 yard line. Someone would have to be delusional if they think the players aren't pressured to join either by peer pressure or fear of losing playing time or place.

How line between this and a teacher leading a prayer before lunch on the PA is very fine.

 

Im not too upset and could have aeen either way.

One thing I dont think ill ever understand is how big religion is for some people...like watching the football coach in Last Chance U leading a prayer in "Jesus name" or when my friends from the Bible Belt legit believe the US has some divine mandate.

Aside from Hasidic Jews or Amish people, most people were Im from saw religion as a familial obligation

 

Oh ofc not.

But Christians have to feel persecuted. Its so embedded in the Abrahamic faiths...

 

This is so true, Christianity is based upon persecution.....

Religion is funny, find a down trodden people, promise them a better afterlife, add water, and wallah, religion.

I am currently worshipping the Summarian Gods, may move to Greek next.

DD

 

"okay 95% of the town goes to the Baptist church...

but that pesky lesbian couple and their dog refuses to go to church and wont convert. Why are they shoving their SINS down my throat?'

 

Only in that it shows that three of the justices have gotten these last 3 highly publicized cases wrong.

Is there any evidence that player who chose not to participate in these prayers suffered some ill effect? Specifically, did the coach punish them for not participating?

 

The school fired the coach, not sure what else you wanted the school to do lol

 

In the Sotomayor Dissent it says

"After the issues with Kennedy arose, several parents reached out to the District saying that their children had participated in Kennedy’s prayers solely to avoid separating themselves from the rest of the team. No BHS students appeared to pray on the field after Kennedy’s suspension."

So even if there is no evidence of the coach punish the players, there were players that felt pressured into participating in this religious activity.

This reminds me of this clip

 

the coach doesn't have to work for the school but the kids do have to go to school. also he is an authority figure. this ruling sucks at all levels and it sets up any dissenting kid for a nightmare, at the easiest, of a school experience.

 

I don't understand how conducting a religious service for the team on school property isn't a violation of the separation of church and state.

So teachers can have moments of prayer before every class now?

 

Doing something because you want to fit in is a long way from the coach punishing you for not doing it. Not every kid participated, to my understanding. The ones who didn't had no consequences for not participating.

 

I remember high school football all too well and I remember that the pre game prayer was certainly not optional which I always felt was out of line but the pressure to participate was too much to fight.

I’m okay with the coach doing this but the school district needs to make sure that the coach clearly states beforehand that you don’t have to participate or if you’d like to pray in your own way you can feel free to do so, etc.

To me this is a failure of the principles, superintendent, and the school board to let this get to a point where it even needs to be in the courts. The fact that it got to that point shows that all of the school officials were resolute and unwilling to show any empathy for another belief. That’s a huge failure and the part that missing from this ruling.

If I was a SCOTUS and voted in favor for the school it would be at the same time scolding the hell out of them for having a complete lack of empathy and understanding of the need to not force religious beliefs even if technically a teacher could do it legally in certain contexts.

 

this was discussed in the previous thread on this but yes prayers are already conducted on school property. A prayer group could rent out a school facility to hold a prayer function and certainly there's nothing stopping someone from saying a prayer before they take a test.

Just because you're on your employer's property doesn't mean your rights are completely removed. In this case the official function was over and as such the coach is an individual exercising an individual right.

Obviously it's a fine line but this is one I don't think crosses it.

 

Yeah, I gotta disagree. The fact he did it on the 50 yard line shows that it was not about him expressing his beliefs but rather that he was seeking an audience. He clearly was leading a religious function. It's one thing to say a little prayer before taking a test. It would be entirely another to walk up to the front of the class and lead a prayer that compelled others to do the same for fear of getting a worse grade from the teacher. The very fact kids participated in the prayer for fear of retribution demonstrates a big problem with what he was doing.

If the coach was Muslim and did this I am sure the Supreme Court would have ruled differently.

 

Not yet but when a few kids do, it will be a horrific experience and the kids and their families should bankrupt the districts. Well let us pray that last step happens.

 

In your opinion, what level of prayer in school are you comfortable with, assuming the teacher explicitly tells the students that prayers are optional?

Let's say there are these levels:
1. Teacher silently praying not in the presence of students
2. Teacher silently praying in the presence of students (aka moment of silence)
3. Teacher leading a prayer to a specific entity in an after school 'religious club'.
4. Teacher leading a prayer to a specific entity in an after school non-religious club (sports, honor societies, etc)
5. Teacher leading a prayer to a specific entity in a classroom during class time.

Are you comfortable with all of this assuming the teacher says that praying is 'optional'?

I draw a hard line after level 3 IMO. This SCOTUS case is solidly in level 4.

 

I would say this case (according to my understanding of the facts, which could be wrong) is slightly more nuanced than 4, because of the term leading. The coach went by himself to the 50 yard line, knelt, and prayed. After he was doing that for a while, some of the players went and knelt with him while he prayed. The coach never said anything along the lines of, "Time for the prayer, guys." or "Come on, let's go pray." So I would say 2 or 3 is probably the right place to be, but I would allow a teacher (or coach) to pray whenever they want, out loud or silently, allowing or not allowing students to join, so long as it doesn't disrupt scheduled school activities.

 

Right but in this case, the individual wasn't performing a prayer by him or herself. He performed it on the 50 yard line with students joining him in said prayer (with people in the stands as well). At that point, it becomes an employee of the government organizing a religious prayer ritual in a public school sanctioned event. And when the school tried to find a balance (potentially moving his prayer off the 50 yard line to a more private location), he refused.

No one is saying he can't pray (the school repeatedly offered him alternate arrangements). In fact the school testified that other religious groups had requested the right to pray in the same location during school events and that the school would essentially lose control of its own events if anyone had a right to organize prayer during its events. The school also mentioned that it had an interest on not being perceived as endorsing a religion by allowing an open prayer like this.

So do schools simply not have control over their own events anymore? And the majority is either outright misrepresenting facts or just ignorant if they think that there is no pressure for students to join in an organized prayer like this. This snowballs really quickly without guardrails and the Supreme Court didn't really outline any in the ruling. I personally think the school made a reasonable effort to accommodate the coach and he refused. This wasn't some attempt at silencing his right to prayer. They simply said that he couldn't organize a prayer at the 50 yard line during school events. That seems way over the line if you ask me.