That is very sad to me, in that it suggests that it is expected that any Western influence is a tainting influence. I am reminded of a conversation between Abdullah II & some Bush cronie about what to call people who commit terrorist acts. The American confidently stated that they should be described in the worst terms; "scum, criminals, evil' etc. The king responded that we and the terorrists are more alike than different. Apparently this had a significant effect on moderating current US policy. Your experiences suggest to me that any contact with the west has tainted Abdullah. IMHO, the only real solution short of genocide of either all Americans of all Arabs is for Americans to absorb something of the Arab, and vise versa.
Ok SJC. I agree in some way with you, i can understand that some people are more scared of islamic people then of other people. However what i cannot understand is why a lot of people are so negative on the islam as a religion, the christians have done some terrible things in the world to. But i believe none of this agressive actions are what those religions are about, it is just the human nature. Because IMO humans are violent from nature(I have a pretty negative view of humans, sorry). the thing is that it is logical that an idiot who claims he is islamic attacks christian countrys out of religian, and not a chistian idiot, because it is strange to attack a country out of religion if that country has the same religion as you. However the other way around is the same. I can understand that some islamic people get the feeling that Bush is attacking the islam, because all the countrys he has attacked weher islamic countrys. (To make it clear i do not support any type of violance, i think that the people who did al those attack, WTC london madrid, are idiots). About hirsi ali, she changed BEFORE she was victim of intolerance. She is not a tolerant person, she is not some saint. It was not good that she was threatened. Yes i can blame the dutch for not being tolerant anymore. Because the dutch do nto think and just react to what others say. after Van Gogh was killed(which of course was terrible, but again van gogh was an idiot who tried to push people as far as he could, and not some saint) alot of people do not trust islamic people anymore. But when Fortyun got killed by an environmental activist, nobody stopped trusting environmental activists. I was so scared that the murderer of Fortyun was a Muslim, because if that was the case all hell would have broken loose in holland (IMHO). I understand that some people have more problams trustin an islamic person. But do not think that the islam is a bad religion. yes there have been a lot of attacks done in the name of the islam(by idiots). But there have also been alot of attacks, and bombings done in because of other reasons. The IRA does a lot of bombings but they are Christians. The chistian religion has a terrible past with a lot of unneseccary killing, but that does not make the christian religion bad or violant. it makes the people doing that killing violant, and the same goes for the terrorists now adays. Like i said SJC i can understand you are cautias. I wasn't really upset about the fact that some test showed that 51% of the dutch have a negative feeling with muslims, because like others said statistics can lie. And i do not know th questions asked, and i do not know how people reacted. I'm upset because of what i see around me, what is happening in Holland, and i'm not happy with it. (sorry for my spelling)
oh i forgot one thing. i mentioned Minister verdonk. She is the minister of all affairs of refuges and Foreign people living in holland. Once she whent to a mosque(spl) and she wanted to shake the hand of their Imaam(SPL). The Religious leader refused because he cannot tought strange woman. And Verdonk got very angry and upset and started a small riot because of it. i think it is sad that the person who is in charge of all affairs of foreigners livin in Holland does not understand their religion. And gets upset when he acts by his religion, She showed no respect, and she showed no Brains. that is about the same if the minister of econimics does not understand taxes. (rant ends here)
arno_ed, but this is an example where, if you say she is intolerant (I don't think so), at least both are intolerant. I think a religion which teaches that you cannot shake the hand of a woman is intolerant in that respect and that is a direct clash with our culture and civilization. They came as guests to your country, and someone is extending their hand to them, and they say no. I say, then you should not go to that country. May sound harsh, but I cannot accept someone coming to a country and then trying to force their beliefs on the people in that country. Likewise, I would not recommend a woman going to Saudi-Arabia and walking around in a mini-skirt either.
i have to disagree with you. i think there is a difference in religion and in culture. His religion says he cannot do that, is that disrespectfull, i do not know(don't know the reason they cannot touch unkown woman). But why should he be forced to do things his religion doesn;t want him to do. I know alot of christians who refuse to work on sunday, even though their jobs requires it. But they do not do it, because it is against their religion. That is fine by me, but then a islamic person should be allowed not to touch another woman. S why is it ok for the christian to not work on sunday, but not for the muslim to not touch a stranger? A mini skirt is something completly different, No religion tells their woman to wear a mini skirt, so if a woman wears a mini skirt in a islamic country she is not expressing her religion. So that is completly different. Also i do not think that they are trying to force their believe on other people. If they do not want to shake hand, that is ok. You can still shake hands with other people, just not them. So they do not force their believe on you. The moment he is complaining to you that you do shake hands with strangers, then he is forcing his believe on you. About the same when people do not want to play soccer on sunday, and i have to play on saterday. hat might be forcing their believes on me, however i do not think so, because it is their believe and i will respect that, so i take a day of work and play soccer on saterday, because i accept that they are different, and that is exactly what Verdonk should have done with that Imaam(sp) accept that he is different. Unfortunatly she cannot.
I give you another example: Once, there was a dinner invitation in Bonn, where I used to live, for foreign diplomatic people. Some people from Iran were also invited. They insisted on getting assurances beforehand that no alcohol would be served to anyone. No, not only did they not want to drink alcohol, they said, either there is no alcohol, or we will not be there. What is this, are they just following their religion or are they forcing their beliefs on others?
In this case they are forcing their believes to you. I understand that they do not want to drink, But it is not good that they force you also not to drink. So this is an example of intolerance
But in the example you gave, it has been a longstanding culture in your country to greet others by shaking hands. These people know that when they come to your country. If they selectively refuse to shake womens' hands, they not only do something which opposes the country's culture, but they also do something which, by any other man in that country, would be regarded as discriminatory behavior towards women. Where do you draw the line? You say religion trumps culture. Well, I say it should not, if the religion, or the way it is practiced, demands discriminatory behavior. And selectively refusing to shake hands with women is discriminatory behavior to me, and a way of forcing that behavior on those who are discriminated by it.
The way i see it is in the hand shake example the person who's hand is not shaken does not loose something. their are other way's to greet each other. And that person can shake hands with everybody else, just not that one person. With the alcohol nobody can drink, so it effects the entire group. it would have been the same if that person said that he didn't want people to drink alcohol while in confersation with him, because that would effect just a smal period of time.
Imagine the following scenario: You, me and four other Germans with me meet someone from Austria. The Austrian guy shakes my hands and the hands of the other Germans, but ostentatively refuses to shake your hands. You can still shake hands with everybody else. Do you feel discriminated?
I would actually not care, however i see why some people would have a problem with it. But if he has a good reason i think people should not feel discriminated. Because they are just not alowed to shake hands, i will not expect from that Austrian guy to do something that is in conflict with his religion. Their are other ways to greet me, he can smile really friendly and show that he does not dislike me as a person but it is just something he is obligaded to do(or not do in this case). BTW it is great havind a discussion with a european, because now i can write during the day
Those numbers are appalling. Who was arguing with me over how many millions of Muslims cheered 9-11 and support OBL? These stats easily confirm that supposition -- in fact, they lead me to believe that scores of millions of Muslims support Osama to this very day. If people can't recognize that there is something *institutionally* wrong with this, then I just don't know what to tell them.
Jackie: The incident Arno mentioned was at a mosque. Was shaking hands with a religious leader in that moment THAT important? Important enough to start a small riot? For something so symbolic? She should most definitely be fighting for the rights of women. And against discrimitary practices within the Muslim faith....but, at the same time, you have to pick your battles. Suppose a political leader refused to acknowledge a catholic leader because women cannot become priests? Would that garner support? In your example...Arno should respond by buying a beer for you, himself and the other Germans...but not for the Austrian. Then raise his glass with a big grin as he proposes a toast to the great countries of Germany and Holland.
Germans are not very popular in Holland . I think they call us "Moffen". But I would still like to have a beer with arno one day, he seems like a very nice guy .
Here we go again confusing religion with culture! About the hand-shaking debate, some Muslim men (fundamentalists if you want to call them) refuse to shake a woman's hand, although the MAJORITY (and I mean the absolute majority) of Muslim men will gladly shake a woman's hand without any reservations. Shaking hands with a woman is not sex, it's just taboo for the more fundamentalist Muslims around. As for this poll, it;s a very interesting one while, at the same time, likely a misleading one in some aspects. As for the support for Bin Laden and Al-Qaeda, it doesn't surprise me that both Jordan (which has Palestinian majority population) and Pakistan (which has been recently radicalized by the fact that their country is helping the "Evil" USA kill their fellow Muslims) would both have rising support for Bin Laden. Again, this if anything else proves that politics trump anything else, and it has nothing to do with religious ideals when it comes to their support of Bin Laden's Al-Qaeda, because however nasty and criminal he might be, they view him as someone who is bringing a twisted form of "justice" to the evil American crusaders. If American presence was absent in Iraq and Afghanistan, I guarantee you these numbers won't be nearly as high. As for the most disturbing part of that poll -- the negative view of Jews present in especially THE most diverse and free country in the ME, Lebanon -- I must say that is probably a very misleading part of the poll. First of all, I would need to know exactly the methodology of this poll, how they asked the question IN ARABIC, and was there a clear effort made to clearly state that "by Jews we mean the religion, not the Israelis" or did the Pew research people just assume that their question would be clearly understood by the surveyed; in this case it always helps to have someone who understands the culture and how certain words are understood in a particular country on hand, which doesn't seem to be the case here. The reason? Simple: Lebanese Christians cannot possibly hate all Jews, but rather the ONLY possible explanation for such an almost unanimous negative view of "Jews" is for those questioned to have understood the surveyor to mean "Israel", because in that part of the world, sadly, mostly people refer to the ISraelis as not at all as Israelis, by rather "Yahud", or "Jews". So basically both words are synonmous. But again, the mere fact that both Christians and Muslims in Lebanon who were surveyed expressed unanimous negative feelings about Israel (I assume that's what they understood by the question being asked, since having lived for a considerable time in the midst of that part of the world I understand how people there communicate and how common words are often understood, which might most Westerners are oblivious to) shows that POLITICS are everything, that most human beings are rational people who react to the particular situations and circumstances, rather than just having been brainwashed by their various religious beliefs. Now, the weird thing is that if BOTH Christians and Muslims in one of the most tolerant Arab societies view Israel with such negativity, then imagine how people in countries like Saudi view Israel! Scary indeed, and as long as these mutual feelings of hatred and suspicion prevade among both sides, then I must say the outlook for any long-term (not short-term) peaceful co-existence between the arab world in general and Israel is very grim Politics, gentlemen, it all comes down to politics. Why? Ask the Jordanians or the Palestinians about their view of "France" or "Sweden" and you will get a completely different reaction than you would get if you asked about the United States.
Yeah for some reason the germans are not that popular in holland cough 1974 cough I do not have problems with germans, only in sports, i want them to loose, but i also want the americans to loose and the french. So that is not that strange. Moffen is a nickname dutch give to some germans, but it is not a very friendly name, because it originated in WO2. you also seem like a nice guy, if you ever are in Holland let me know so we can drink a beer(or atleast you drink beer i do not drink alcohol). bnb you are right, thanks for clearing that up.
You know it is taboo for a man to shake the hand of a married orthodox Jewish woman, too. I learned this in NYC the hard way. Every time one of my buddies and I would go out for dinner (he could only eat Kosher so we went to same restaurants every time) we would invariably end up seeing some friends of his from school or the synagogue and he would introduce me to them as well out of formality. Well every time I would (as is our American custom) attempt to shake hands with both the husband and wife, the wife would either just hold back and smile or reluctantly extend her arm and then retract it back like it was spring loaded. So after a few months my buddy finally tells me "you're not supposed to be shaking the chicks hands, dummy." Actually I had already figured this out after the first couple times, but some of those Jewish chicks were smokin hot so I kept persisting anyways
Unfortunately, in practice the two are often inseperable. Is former Presidential candidate Jerry Faldwell a purely religious figure? Many people can't seperate culture from religion in practice.
Yeah I noticed that, too. The reason given was "oh those Germans are just too arrogant." I think maybe a lot of Europeans resent Germany's high standard of living and the cash that German tourists are able to throw around when they travel. Of course, your consolation is that the French are far more reviled all over the continent
There are a couple of reasons germans are not that popular in holland. Older people, still feel a grudge over WO2. The world championship soccer in 1974 the fact that alot of germans are in holland in the summer vacation(even tough they provide us alot of money). the dutch are terrible on vacation, so they should not complain about the germans.
