Jordan couldn't get out of the first round and got swept out twice pre-Pippen And pretty sure Jordan was superstar since Bird called him God disguised as Jordan after sweeping him 3-0 All superstars need a all star sidekick or two, its why Magic and others won multiple rings because of that, you have exceptions like Dream/Dirk but its very rare in the 75 yrs or so of NBA existence, a superstar can't do it alone Superstars consist of being killers on the hardwood who can consistently take over a game(in team concept or solo) and being box office/exciting at home and road games, when the road team has plenty of your jerseys in the crowd you are a rock/superstar
Lamelo is 3 tool but does he impact winning the way that Murray, Haliburton, or Tatum is the question. Maybe I shouldn't have lumped the 3 groups together, but each of those players with the exception of Haliburton have shown the ability to elevate their teams in conference finals or championship level games. I give more credit to guys who have already shown what type of game they have in the most important, high pressure situations possible. Lamelo, SGA, Edwards,and Booker can make a case for superstardom, as they are all tremendous talents. They could very well become a superstars or top 10 players. But back to your original issue. Given the choice between a healthy Murray and healthy Lamelo and you've got one choice, who are you taking? Tatum or Lamelo?
The argument holds no weight. Teams know who their best player is and it’s pretty simple. Who can beat their guy and get to the paint and get buckets consistently? Who can shoot? Ok let’s ride with that guy and feed off him. Not every player can score 20 ppg or more. It takes ability and preparation. Pretty simple.
No, it just takes shooting enough to compile 20 points per game when you don't care about efficiency. Dillon Brooks was one of the least efficient and worst offensive players in the league last year, but if the Grizzlies had given him 18-20 shots per game, he'd have scored 20 a game. It wouldn't mean he was any good.
Defense is going to be less of an issue for Jalen Green when he is on the court with Amen Thompson. Green is quick and has greatly improved his side to side quickness. The negative is that he isn’t big for a shooting guard, so he can be pushed around by bigger players. Ideally Jalen Green would defend point guards, and as a rookie he was already average defensively against point guards…. Because of Thompson’s size, wingspan and athleticism - he can guard shooting guards as easily as point guards. Most likely Thompson will be guarding shooting guards and Green will be able to defend point guards, where he has a physical advantage - so defensively the pairing of Thompson and Green is optimal - especially with Ime who will force Green to not give up on cuts to the basket. It’s why the combo of Green and Thompson is potentially so explosive and dominant…. Defensively no one will be isolating or picking on Green with Thompson… in transition Green and Thompson are dominant, and will both push the pace…. Green is a good spot up shooter, Thompson is a good passer from the lane, so they should work together… Green is a good passer to cutters, and Thompson is devastating in cuts. It’s a really really high upside backcourt potentially and should end up as the identity of the team…. If Thompson learns to hit 12 footers and Green keeps improving.
Potential and best chance are different IMO. I think Amen has the greatest potential but Green seems like the most probable given today's NBA.
Those three players are simply in better situations. Dude. Especially Murray and Tatum. Tatum has always been on a team with high quality vets or stars. Murray has literally Jokic. And ya I'm taking LaMelo over Tatum. LaMelo has the scoring potential of Tatum while being a much better playmaker/lead pg. LaMelo is simply a higher ceiling player than Tatum.
Right now we look to have 4 or 5 players with superstar potential and a bench that is 14 deep. Wonder how this will look a few weeks into next season?
@BaselineFade @roslolian @Bobbythegreat I am not sure what you mean by "If Grizzlies had given him 18-20 shots per game". Are you suggesting that the coaching staff intentionally limits Brooks' shots or telling him not to shoot? This doesn't sound like empowering players to me. Most systems these days focus on reacting to defenses and player decision making. If you have the lane you take it. If you have the shot take it. If you don't then pass. Players also play to their strengths-if you can take your man off the dribble you do it. If you are a catch and shoot guy that's what you do. That's why players are taught to play within their game and good teams understand each other's capabilities and limitations. That's why most team have a go to guy and it is evident in how the team plays and the numbers. And if the grizzlies are preventing Brooks from shooting, then how do you explain his documented preference for shooting jumpers? You also said players should "care about efficiency". What player constantly thinks whether the shot he puts up is good or not? If you drill and train, during playing time there's no thinking. Over thinking messes your game. If you are open you take the shot no hesitation. The numbers simply don't support what you are saying. If you look at the numbers in terms of leaders in FGA in 22-23, with a sizable number of games played as a starter, the list is filled with stars and potential stars and known scorers in the league including Lebron, Luka, Curry and guys like Melo and Ingram etc. Most of these players are the go -to players on their teams for offense. These players have high FGA numbers because of ability. Green ranked at #28 at 17.9 FGA per game last year. Assessment: Green and Brooks are two completely different players. The numbers show Green attacks the paint more and holds the ball longer likely because he plays off the high screen and roll or trying to beat his man off the dribble. This shows us ability. Brooks doesn't have the ability to beat a man off the dribble consistently. That's not his game and this limits his shot attempts. Brooks catches and shoots more than Green and the numbers show this. Green also has more unassisted FG's which supports the notion that he is better at creating his own offense. Green dominates in touches as a focal point for the offense and he is in the second tier of players with mostly 2 guards and 3's. The top PG's in the leagues dominate the touch category. Green significantly passed more per game than Brooks and more per drives, which shows his willingness to pass. Green may play more minutes but Brooks would have to score 2 pts per minute in that 3.9 minutes to keep up with Green's pace. And Green's scoring and FGA are higher per possession and per play despite the Rockets as a team have a more inefficient offense per 100 possessions and his per 36 numbers are better than Brooks. The numbers and eye test tell a tale that Green can generate more offense on his own than Brooks even when the minutes and possessions are taken into account and further suggests that player ability to score rather than simply having more shots better explains the disparity in scoring between Green and Brooks. But let's look at the numbers: Minutes per Game: Brooks 30.3 Green 34.2 Diff: 3.9 minutes Points per Game: Brooks: 14.3 Green: 22.1 Diff: 7.8 pts Green may play more minutes, but Brooks would have to score 2 pts per minute in that 3.9 minutes to keep up with Green's pace. FGA per game: Brooks 13.6 Green 17.9 Diff: 4.3 FGA per min: Brooks 0.45 Green 0.52 Green slightly edges Brooks in FGA per minute despite playing 3.9 more minutes. FGA per poss Brooks 0.211 Green 0.248 Green slightly edges in FGA per possession. Points per poss Brooks 0.223 Green 0.248 Green scores at a slightly higher rate than Brooks per possession. Grizzlies ranked 11 at 1.14 pts per poss and 114 pts per 100 possesions. Rockets were 27 at 1.10 per poss and 110 pts per 100. May explain why FGA Per 100 poss Brooks 21.1 Green 24.8 Per 100 poss,based on his rate, Brooks has 3.7 less attempts than Green Points Per 100 poss Brooks 22.3 Green 30.8 Per 100 poss, Green edges in points. Per 36 FGA Brooks 16.1 Green 18.8 Per 36 ppg Brooks 17.0 Green 23.3 Green edges in ppg per 36. FGA per play: Brooks 0.184 Green 0.214 Green edges Brooks per play. Points per play: Brooks 0.194 Green 0.264 The Rockets rely on Green to generate points as a main focus for the offense, Points per min Brooks 0.47 Green 0.65 ASST per game: BROOKS 11.7 GREEN 17.3 Drives Brooks 6.3 Green 12.9 per game Drives pass% Brooks 21.3% Green 26.9% Touches Brooks 3006 Green 5011 The Rockets rely on Green to generate points as a main focus for the offense. Avg seconds per touch Brooks 2.67 Green 4.41 Avg Seconds per dribble: Brooks 1.78 Green: 3.94 Green 40.1 passes per game asst/pass ratio 9.2 passed to 53.7 Brooks 24.4 passes per game asst/pass 10.6 passed to 30.8 Where they like to shoot: Brooks: Less 5 ft: 214 FGA 5-9 ft: 129 FGA 20-24 ft 155 FGA 25-29 ft 303 FGA Restricted 195 FGA NON RA 233 FGA Green Less 5 ft: 437 FGA 5-9 ft 125 FGA 20-24-136 FGA 25-29 ft 430 FGA Restricted 386 FGA Non RA 216 FGA Shows Green's proficiency to get to the paint. Dribbling frequency: Brooks 0 dribbles 35.4% 3-6 dribble 29.4% 7 plus 5.9% Brooks facilitates Morant and other players and is more of a catch and shoot player with less ability to get to the paint. Green: 0 dribbles: 23.3% 3-6 dribbles 30.6% 7 plus dribbles 25.4% Green plays more high screen and roll, iso, and off the pistol etc, Touches: Brooks: less 2 seconds 42.6 2-6 sec 47.7 6 plus seconds 9.7 Green: Less 2 sec: 27.4 2-6 sec 41.2% 6 plus seconds 31.4% Catch shoot Frequency: Brooks 30.2% Green 18.6% Unassisted FGA Brooks: 223 Green: 326 Layups Brooks 209 Green: 412 Dunks Brooks 12 Green 62
Yes, the Grizzlies limited his shots....it's one of the reasons they ultimately said that under no circumstances would that scrub be allowed on their roster ever again. Brooks was upset all year long demanding a larger role in the offense despite being just awful. He sees himself as a star and thought that he should have the role of a star. He saw "only" 13.6 shot attempts per game was an insult to someone of his talent. If he was allowed to do whatever he wanted like Jalen, he'd have been taking at least 17-18 shots a game....to the detriment of the team, just like Jalen. If he had been allowed to chuck to his heart's content, he'd have scored 20+ too, but he'd still be awful offensively. Nothing else you had to say had anything to do with what was actually being discussed....you went off on some weird tangent trying to compare Brooks and Green for some reason....I guess you thought that was what the conversation was about. Odd. Since you got so confused, I'll explain. The point of the conversation was to say if merely scoring 20 points per game is impressive....no matter how it happens. I was explaining that it's not an impressive thing to score 20 a game if you do it in an inefficient manner....most NBA players could score 20 a game if they went the Jerry Stackhouse/Jalen Green route of just chucking till you manage to compile the points.....but most coaches would never allow that kind of thing because it would kill the team. The Rockets were tanking, so they let Jalen chuck and his chucking led them to 2 consecutive top 5 picks. He could probably do it again this year if they let him.
I mean here's the thing. This is an EXCELLENT analysis of why Brooks simply couldn't do what Green did. The issue you are proving something that is very obvious to a troll. My suggestion. Put him on ignore. I'm not reading his posts but I guarantee you hes typing a lot of words without really saying anything or providing evidence. If he replies he probably is just going repeat his premises in different wording and just ignore literally every point you made. It's not a conversation. It's just a dude rephrasing his initial point with different wording
Great post. We'd certainly have the fastest first steps in the league for a backcourt causing defenses to collapse more regularly. The backcourt is really exciting but don't sleep on our frontcourt. Sengun & Jabari may yet learn how to professionally protect the rim and deal with mismatches now that the coaches are serious (Sengun's words, not mine). People are going to love them and they seem to have a pretty cool bond already. They (along with Eason) worked out together all summer. Offensively within 1.5 years we will have Amen with a 3pt shot + Jalen with stronger body and more polished game + Sengun running low/high post sets and making his threes... that would be a really special trio that don't overlap. So hard for opponents to deal with that mix of athleticism and playmaking coming at you relentlessly. Jabari compliments them perfectly too as a 3&d off ball player - he can feast off the 3 creators endlessly while also creating his own shot at times. Tari is a perfect fit too with his two way game and he seemed more poised and mature during the summer league. I think he will absorb Udoka's coaching easily. We've been lucky to get pieces that fit together on paper. Really want to see what a real coach and some great veterans can get out of these guys.
Are you stupid? You specifically said “Dillon Brooks was one of the least efficient and worst offensive players in the league last year, but if the Grizzlies had given him 18-20 shots per game, he'd have scored 20 a game. It wouldn't mean he was any good.” You specifically mentioned Brooks so I tailored my discussion to Brooks, which both the numbers and eye test showed that he couldn’t score 20 at the rate he was scoring. Simply saying just because player A has more FGA than player B, he was able to score x number of points is simply inaccurate, uneducated and an oversimplification. One easy way is to go back to the playground. Im not even talking about organized ball. What do you do? You feed dude that can get buckets. You know exactly who the best player on your team is. The pecking order is established pretty quickly. Pretty simple. But you would know this if you played ball right? Dumba$$ hoe
@Bobbythegreat did respond and he responded quickly which means he didn’t put no thought into it but a mindless rebuttal. Denying that he mentioned Brooks Lmao
The point, which I thought would be obvious, was that even a player as bad offensively as Brooks, would have scored 20+ points if he was allowed to chuck as many shots as he wanted....but it wouldn't mean he was any good offensively. Also, it's kind of funny, you say he "couldn't have scored 20 at the rate he was scoring".....but you fail to understand that with enough volume, he absolutely would have. That's the point. It's one of those things that is so obvious that you'd think everyone could grasp those basic concepts, but then, here we are.
Not sure what your point is why are you comparing Green and Brooks? Brooks is an inefficient player who thinks he is better than he really is, it's the main reason I didn't want him, elite defensive player but horrible scorer why's that dude worth 29M? We can get more balanced players like Taurean Prince or Grant Williams for half the cost. But it doesn't matter how inefficient Brooks is if you give him lots of shots he will average 20 pts. It's the same reason why Brooks wants to chuck shots even if he sucks so he can tell people he's a 20 pt scorer.
LOL....I'm not though. You went off on some random tangent apparently due to you not understanding the conversation you were trying to engage in. That's not on me. Let's get back to the conversation that was being had, chuckers can compile 20 points per game if they chuck enough, but it's not a good thing. Hopefully that basic concept isn't over your head.
