Superstar Kevin Martin?

Now that we have 2 more very good SGs in Lee and a backup in Twill, I think Martin gets traded, as he is coveted around the league for his scoring, but we can all see that Lee can score nearly as well and defend too.

Lee needs more PT.....and Martin will net us a very good player in a position of need.

DD

 

Way !

They trade him because the scoring load is taken up by others, and they can also play defense.

Lee can easily score more as a starter, and he plays defense too......

Sorry, you may not agree, but I believe Kmart will be the main piece in a trade to upgrade the team.

DD

 

What I meant to do, by digging up the rotting corpse of Tracy McGrady, vaids_13...

...is actually what you verified in comparing Kevin martin to LeBron James or Carmelo Anthony, or even The Artist Formerly Known as Tracy McGrady.

And going forward, vaids_13, you should know that I'm a notorious McGrady apologist.

I'm one of the last people here who would find a lot to fault about Tracy McGrady the basketball player for the majority of his time here, and the circumstances under which he was asked to perform. Circumstances which, while not absolving McGrady of any perceived or actual responsibility for some of the negative outcomes of games, were prodigious.

And for all of McGrady's character flaws, he did rise to the challenge more often than most of his teammates did. And McGrady's personality is the only reason why no one will ever believe that.

The assumption, again, is that great players win games late. And they do.

Whenever a game is in the balance, that is when the best player on the floor decides the outcome. All things being equal, the better player wins....

....if the better player happens to be on the better TEAM. And there's the rub.

Despite what most of us believe, McGrady was never on a better team in any postseason here, even when he was categorically the better player. What was always perplexing to me was that McGrady never had his finger on the pulse of a game....especially when his teammates needed what he alone could uniquely do...and that was score.

In spite of what he would routinely say afterwards, McGrady tended to display enormous trust in teammates. He too often would defer scoring to someone else, usually making a good play and decision in the process. It really wasn't so much that McGrady was ever truly unstoppable, as he was predictable.

You could get McGrady to shoot a jumpshot or pass the ball if you wanted too. McGrady would play the game the right way, on average. And on an average team, that was your chance to beat him.

Making McGrady a playmaker/facilitator/distributor for a team that couldn't score a dancer from Michael's was destined to fail. Especially with McGrady embracing that role as thoroughly as he did.

I always felt that there wasn't really a problem with Tracy McGrady driving your championship bus, if that's what you wanted (Jeff Van Gundy).

But you might want to make sure that you give him a map, too. And make sure he reads it. But that's just me.

You don't measure a great player in TFP or TSP or even ESP. You measure him in moments, and in situations, and in circumstances, isolated and in context of what's at stake.

That is why McGrady is largely considered a failed player. Only those moments could define a talent like McGrady's. Nobody would care how poorly McGrady shot the ball, or how much he shot the ball, if he made enough plays when it counted.

Nobody measures Kevin Martin that way. I don't know if anyone should. But I do know that Martin is designed to work wonders in an OFFENSE that will get him the open looks and opportunities he needs.

If people know Martin is coming (like most good team would know), they would be able to handle him. That's why the numbers Martin generates are misleading. He doesn't do nearly as well against committed individual and team defenders as Carmelo Anthony over an extended period, or late in games. And because of that, Anthony influences how you defense him and his team.

The game is still played by human beings. Not robots. Human beings are susceptible to things that numbers and stats don't have anything at all to do with.

Very few teams concerned themselves with Yao Ming's inability to catch the ball cleanly in the low post, for instance, the way that the oh-so-observant patrons here at ClutchFans routinely pointed out. They would rather he not catch it at all, and changed what they did to make that happen, because they knew what Yao could do if you played him fairly.

I really wasn't seeking to compare players, vaids_13. Just comparing mindsets about what players are, as opposed to what they do.

A piece of advice for you?

Leave that nice talk about Tracy McGrady someplace else.....
....it might not be worth the headache......

...I go went through half a bottle of Advil a day myself....

 

I think that depends, but I am pretty sure they will flip Martin, he is great on offense, but putrid on defense, and if you notice, Morey has been getting 2 way players lately......

I think they will use Martin's inflated stats to flip him for either a very high draft pick or a great young player, or as part of a Superstar trade.

But, I seriously doubt Martin is part of the team's future.

DD

 

Kevin Martin plays within himself, which is all you can ever really ask for from a professional. There are a lot of guys in this league with equal or better basketball skills that end up hurting their respective teams by trying to play beyond that ability. The other side to that coin, however, is that if Martin finds himself in a situation where he knows he cannot score efficiently, as often is the case late in games, he essentially disappears.

For the bulk of a given game's minutes, Martin's style is helpful as it maximizes offensive production on a long-term frame. A big part of that is the expectation that he will draw a foul on some relatively stable percentage of the times he drives to the hoop; the points he produces when he makes the shot, gets the foul call, or both far outweigh the points the offense as a whole would otherwise produce on the plays where he misses and doesn't get the call.

At a certain point, though, there are too few possessions left in a game to justify the risk of not scoring at all based on the various benefits gleaned from drawing a foul. Off the top of my head, one of the reasons this may be the case is that fouls can reap benefits many possessions after they are drawn, as when a team accumulates enough to earn penalty free throws. Also, if Martin is a poor shooter on contested shots (I saw some decent evidence for this somewhere), it becomes costly to run the offense through him when you may not have the luxury of spending 10 seconds running him off back screens (note: if this is a major factor, we should expect Martin to produce more in late games we are winning than those we are trailing).

 

Wrote a reply to you, only to see myself get logged out....suffice to say that I misunderstood your post as creating a false equivalency between KMart and T-Mac. I disagreed with your recollection that T-Mac was routinely antagonized on this board for his inability to close out games in winning moments, because he almost always came through in winning moments. It was the collective talent that failed us, and more times than not posters here blamed guys like Rafer Alston for his lack of offensive production or Luther Head's knack for shooting too frequently, or Bonzi Wells conditioning...or something. T-Mac's downfall started with his injuries, and culminated with his departure.

but I'll leave the T-Mac talk as per your suggestion

My point concerning K Mart was in concert with Morey's point- this team is in close games largely as a result of K Mart, pitting them in situations where a solitary turnover over missed free throw serves as a death knell down the stretch. AB's offense provides separation late in games, and he's not afraid to take shots, and he certainly doesnt defer to players with lesser offensive skillsets when called upon. The same cant be said of Martin, and I believe your comparison of Martin and Melo is spot on in this regard. In any case, I gotta get back to work

 

If your thinking about how to be the best team we can NOW, then yes. But if your looking down the road, a player that is raw (a great draft pick) or a disgruntled player on another team the has a huge upside, would be worth giving up Martin for, imo. Martin just can never be a teams center piece unless he can play both ends of the floor, regardless of how good he may be at one end.

And because he is really good at one end, he is one of those few players that may give us a chance of a superstar later, in the form of trading him for that chance. We really dont have many players good enough at either end to be worth it for an opposing team to give up a possible franchise player.

 

This is the kind of misconception I hope my above post can help refute. The thing about Martin is that defenders DO know what's coming and CANNOT stop him over an extended period. You can limit his effectiveness only if you can limit the number of possessions available to an offense to the point where frequency of production (i.e. the percentage of possessions resulting in points) and efficient use of time (i.e. limiting the duration of a possession) are more important than overall offensive efficiency (the number of points scored per possession).

 

Martin is a baller and a half for what he gets paid at. No way we trade Martin unless it's for a superstar. I was intrigued by bringing in a SF like Melo, Wallace or Iggy mainly bc I think our 2/3 combo would become deadly.

Martin isn't going anywhere. He is 27 and entering his prime. I think we should build around Martin, Scola, and Lowry.

 

imo, the way we are getting a SS is to get really lucky through the draft or overpay another team in a trade. I really dont share your confidence that a SS can be had without Martin in the deal. I used to believe that but I dont anymore. The SS's want to partner up as you put it. And since we have no partner, its going to take a trade whereby the player doesnt have any say in the matter. And thats only going to happen if we overwhelm the other team. And thats going to be hard to do without Martin.

 

Thats a weak core to build around, imo.

 

Not necessarily. We need to add that one player. The problem is finding that one player that could get you over the hump.

 

I agree with Martin not going anywhere simply because we wont get enough in return, but I wouldn't be opposed to moving Scola or Lowry if the return is good enough... Scola is getting old, however I fully expect his game to be the same, however there is some risk there and he is a large liability on defense... I also suspect other teams are noticing Lowry's numbers and may be willing to pay to get him... With that said the return better be damn good for either of them...

 

What I meant was, thats not a core thats likely to yield a championship.

 

you act like melo wasn't leading his teams to the playoffs consistently before billups

you act like melo didnt lead his team to the playoffs his ROOKIE SEASON before karl