Exactly. You can't extend your arms fully and hit the QB after the ball is released. That (and helmet contact) is almost always going to draw the flag because that is exactly what the refs will be watching for. Of course they sometimes go overboard like that Titans-Ravens game earlier this year where they flagged a Ravens player for patting Kerry Collins on the head.
The problem I had with that play wasn't so much the roughing the passer as it was the lack of intentional grounding. I don't think it was a lot of contact, but the arms were extended, and if you want to go by the rulebook, then yeah, that probably is roughing the passer. However, if you're going to go by the rulebook on that, why not go by the rulebook on everything? Ben was still inside the box, and where he threw the ball, there wasn't a Pittsburgh receiver within 15 yards. No one was even close! Don't go by the rulebook on one side of the ball and then use it as loosely as possible on the other — consistency is all I ask.
I brought this up earlier in response to your other post, and I confess I don't know the rules on the matter. Ben first goes to the right and then comes back to the left. When he's on the right, he gets to the tackle (after reviewing it like 20 times, I don't think he gets outside the box on the right, but it is close) But, the part I don't know about the rules... if he leaves the pocket then goes back can he still just throw it away? Either way, yes I do agree it was intentional grounding, but I could see the refs not catching it, since it was relatively close. Still has the personal foul though so wouldn't matter. Doubly doesn't matter, because that was the field goal drive.
You wouldn't extend your arms as you were running in to somebody. I've seen plays like that in two hand touch.
Um, yes, it absolutely does matter. The yardage for the intentional grounding (10-15, depending on where he was) would first be applied, then the 15-yard personal foul would be taken off. 10+ yards is a pretty big deal. Likewise, that drive was critical... if not for that FG, the Cardinals only need a FG on the last drive of the game, and the entire complexion of the game changes.
Dude, is it really that hard to understand an NFL rule? You are just being objectionable at this point. It isn't about extending your arms as if you are going to brace yourself, its that he extended his arms out as he ran into the QB, which means he was deliberately trying to take him down with a hard push and making no effort to avoid heavy contact after the ball was thrown. That is a pretty easy roughing the passer call IMO. As for the intentional grounding, I think it was close, and all these calls are just so arbitrary sometimes. I think the refs did a decent job given how many subjective calls they had to make over the course of the game.
Further review, it was the TD drive, but I'll look at spot of the foul. My main point still stands, that with the run to the right and then the left it is understandable for the refs to miss it. I'm assuming you don't know the rules on the matter as well?
Once the QB leaves the tackle box once, he is out of the pocket no matter if he goes back into the tackle box area or not, I don't remember if he did though.
I personally don't think he did... he was about parallel to the right tackle. But at that point someone would have to be quibbling over a close call. In other words, not a great travesty of a non-call that it is being made out to be. Quick check, I couldn't find the replay that I had watched yesterday that had the play, and I honestly don't care.
When you are going that fast, you have no other options. It isn't like he took a bunch of steps and hit him. It was step and into him. He didn't have a reasonable chance to stop his momentum.
Well I disagree and I think you are wrong, but that is just because I have seen a great deal of roughing the passer calls that were blatantly bad calls, and this one was just a case of a guy who had a full second to not shove the QB to the ground, yet he did anyway... sure its very tough to stop when you're that close to a sack but its the rule and its there for a reason. But I guess you won't be convinced otherwise so this is fruitless to continue debating.
what was up with bruce springsteen doing his best jim morrison (of "The Doors") impersonation at the beginning of his set? "how many of you people are alive out there?" that was pretty funny and unpredictable.
You nailed it — it's quibbling over a close call, just like the roughing the passer on the same play, which was equally debatable and questionable to the point that Madden and every analyst I've heard has said they wouldn't have called. If you're going to nitpick, do it both ways. That's all I ask.
Without video evidence, which can't be found by me, it is of course impossible to change our opinions on a judgement call. I hate the lack of video online. That and my good for nothing DVR receiver not working anymore. Edit: Found at the 3:47 mark http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80e86d72 At 3:48 Ball is still in his hand. 3:48 Dansby has already stepped with his right foot and ready to hit the QB. Less than a second goes by. I watched it frame by frame. I wish my Print Screen would work.
One he extended his arms to push. Other he went parallel to the tackles on the other side. You're trying to make point by what Madden says. OK, you win.
My only point is that I know what I saw on that replay, and I've seen roughing the passer calls so much worse than that over the years. I've seen QBs who barely got grazed, I've seen QBs get an accidental shove from a guy who got shoved into him by an offensive lineman, I've seen some doozies... so this was a case in where I don't have a problem with the call. That to me is a call I can live with any day of the week.
It's every analyst on the planet, dude. Before this thread, I hadn't seen anyone trying to rationalize that as a good call. It was a minimal tap, and his arms were already going forward at the point in which Ben still had the ball. It's seriously amazing what people expect of defenders in the names of protecting these precious quarterbacks. Half the time, it's asking a 300 pound guy going full speed to stop on a dime and risk tearing an ACL because a QB unloaded it at the last second. In this case, you're talking about a QB who pump fakes like no other and holds the ball longer than any other QB in the league. If you find a full online stream of the game, let me know, because I'd bet a lot of money I could find several comparable examples of when Pittsburgh defenders pushed Warner immediately after his release. That's something that happens every game and almost every possession. As such, I find it very ticky tack to call that in the second half of the Super Bowl, especially when you admit there was another violation on the same play that wasn't called.
You're nicer than me, then. I agree, I've seen far worse called over the years... I just hate the rule in general. It's another reason I far prefer the college game.
