Suns, Warriors and Rockets all candidates for Utah's caproom (ESPN SPECULATION)

DR,

1) No offense (once again), but lets not compare ourselves to people that have played in the league and who cover the league for a living. That is just silly (BTW, there are people on this very BBS who watched every minute of every game, just like you did, and they didn't feel Rudy deserved to be fired ).

2) Rudy's system had NOTHING to do with the fact that a) Yao was a rookie b) Yao was tired c) Yao was physically not mature enough to handle himself at times. NOTHING.

Rudy's system had NOTHING to do with the fact that a) EG was a 20 year old, two years removed from playing in high school b) EG couldn't find any sort of touch on his inside or outside shot c) EG was not physically mature enough to handle himself at time. NOTHING.

Rudy's system had NOTHING to do with the fact that a) Mo Taylor ruptured his achilles tendon b) Mo Taylor was at no point, fully recovered from that injury during last season.

That is just our problems in the front court. Please give me your theory on how Rudy's system had anything to do with these problems. Id love to hear it.

I guess if we finish out of the playoffs or with only an 8th seed this year, then JVG will be clueless and not worth his weight in gold eh?

It almost makes me want to root for an 8th seed and out just to see who you are going to blame for our perceived lack of success.

3) Is it a lack of discipline or just a sign of an immature team? You can't force a maturation scale on a team. Young teams tend to be wildly inconsistent. Thats why they can beat good teams one night and lose to poor teams the next. Its part of the growing process and is always to be expected.

Also, if you are going to cite Pippen, lets cite a handful of other players who have flourished under Rudy (Clyde, Hakeem, Barkley, Elie, Maxwell, Smith, Horry, Cassell, etc. etc. etc.). To pick one player out and say "look, Rudy couldn't integrate him, therefor, he must not be a very good coach" is, again, silly.

Every coach will have a player who is not happy how he is used, no matter how good a coach he is.

4) DR, I am working on digging up some of the older threads from last year. I specifically remember you going on and on, comparing our roster to the Spurs 1-12 and citing those comparisons as the reasons why we were better (a comparison I told you was highly flawed, which it turned out, was). In addition, you said coaching was another area we had an edge over the Spurs in.

I will find the thread and post it when I find that part of the discussion.

5) Why do you keep comparing us to teams that are one or two years removed from a title?? Last year you compared us with the Spurs, now the Lakers. Its just like you said, parity. Parity exists in different classes.

6) Now we are back to expecting us to be in the same class as SA, Sac, Minny, LA and Dallas. A few posts ago, you said we weren't.

Make up your mind DR! Whats this bet going to be based on??? A top 4 finish??? A playoff appearance??? If we make the playoffs as a low seed and get booted in the 1st round, have we met your expectations as far as contending for a title???

If this bet is going to be based on title contention, then the criteria for the bett should be either a top 4 finish (I will even give you a 5 game handicap) or a 1st round win against a top 4 team. I am sorry, but if we are the 8th seed and lose in the 1st round , that is not contending for a title. Nor is being able to beat those teams during the regular season a sign of contending for a title.

To clarify my position, I see us making the playoffs this year and next but not being seriously considered as title contenders until 2 years from now (at the earliest).

 

Codell, the players said that the disciplined approach would be required suggesting it is no longer the local boys' and girls' club, which Rudy T seem to have ran. The team's results against the weaker teams is consistent with the message I got from the players. Do not blame the messenger.

All we got to do is wait to see what JVG does, since it will not take long. Harris, an experienced coach, was in LA and did not get it done, and with two skips and a jump Jackson turned that around. So we will see what JVG oes. I believe Rudy was correctly fired and you don't. I believe he failed to provide the appropriate coaching and you and the insiders do. I believe he did not get by on x's and o's, rather than on his tenure with the organization and he probably left one championship on the table in the 90's.

Les, the one with the most invested, paid big money to have Rudy step aside and not coach this team again. Who can fault Les for that? All he did was literally give Rudy everything he asked for and in addition to a bunch of excuses, Rudy has given him four years of no playoffs. And instead of facing up to it you take your time and list an extensive list of excuses.

The biggest problem with EG was not his size or number of years out of high school. His coach failed to appropriately utilize a major resourse. Amare is straight out of HS and they found a way to utilize him. Rudy's approach tends to be a patient one and that in itself is the problem. Be more aggressive with your plan and requirements of a player. Lucas had to tell SF that he should be thinking MVP. What is the wait for? You want to wait another two years to contend. For what? We need more veterans. For what?

Bottomline: Rudy T's system as discribed by many in the know was the most difficult system to score. It lacked creativity and did not result in high percentage shots. Sloan would be a good coach to think about when you are trying to understand the fundamental weaknesses of Rudy T as a coach for this team. All that fluff about MoT and Ming is nothing more nothing less than a smoke-screen that thankfully the one with the most to lose, Les as opposed to insiders, was able to see through.

 

So you are saying that youth and inexperience is never an excuse for not contending? Interesting theory (BTW, if you look at the Mavs and Kings of a few years ago, they had the same problems we did with the same core of players they have now (inconsistant))) Yet, no one called Nelson and Adelman clueless and they are considered two of the best coaches in the league.

I don't understand why you want to wait. Wait to see how long it takes the team to grasp a new offensive and defensive scheme, plus integrate a couple of new players????

Hmmmm. Before last season, we tried to integrate a couple of new players (Yao and Posey), plus integrate a few players coming off injuries (Francis, Rice and Taylor), plus had a new offensive and defensive scheme. Sound familiar???

Dont know why JVG might get a free pass in not meeting your expectations. You sure didn't afford Rudy that same privelege.

Once again, you compare apples to oranges. Jackson put LA over the top, as they were a 62% win team and a top seed the season before Jackson. Oh, and they had the most dominant player in the league along with Kobe Bryant.

So Rudy's two titles aren't even good enough anymore? Boy DR, you are harsh. I am not even going to touch this one.

If if Les says so, it must be gold right??? Even if others with better bball experience disagree??? Another winner DR.

Uhhhh, excuse me DR, but in this case, excuses = reality.

I am still waiting for you to address how Rudy's system was specifically responsible for Yao being a tired rookie. How Rudy's system was responsible for Mo being slow to recover from injury and how Rudy's system was responsible for EG being a 20 year old playing against an all-star PF more nights than not.

Quit running away to Les and saying "If Les says so, then it is right". Form your own opinion on these issues I have asked you to explain.

What major resource????

Once again, you are saying that all rookies are created equal and are all ready to contribute on the same level. This is absolutely not true and you know its not. (lets not forget that Amare was much more physically mature than EG and thus, was able to bang with the big boys from day 1).

Like Rudy was with Robert Horry, Sam Cassell, Cuttino Mobley, Michael Dickerson, Yao Ming and Kenny Thomas??

Rudy was so patient with EG, EG had started 90 games and was given 25+ plus before he was 21.

So not only does Dearrock and Les Alexander know more about coaching than Rudy, but John Lucas (career .400 win %) does too??

DR, I won't WANT to wait. If you expect more than what the team is capable of, you are going to drive yourself nuts and start blaming everything except reality.

Was it Rudy's system or execution??? Rudy's systems never had a problem outscoring the other team until we started rebuilding and didn't have near the talent that we did when we were winning. Young teams have problems scoring consistantly DR.

Geez, allow a team to grow and mature.

Sloan was such a better coach than Rudy, that he won how many more titles??? I forgot how many he won. Utah will be lottery bound this year. Well see how good Sloan is with young players who aren't ready to carry a team.

You call youth, inexperience and injuries a smokescreen. I call it reality and legitimate problems that coach's face.

Keep relying on Les for your bball assesment DR. You will continue to be disappointed. I am really starting to think that you believe Les, when he said we were one of the greatest teams ever assembled last year.

 

This was a great discussion and well worth reading! I just hope such great posters as Sane and Codell remain amicable to one another.

 

Are you kidding?!? You actually read all of this? God...they typed so much. 4 pages.....

 

Codell, I have said what I have said. If you are able to locate where I said youth and inexperience is never an excuse please show it to me. Also I have never said the MoT injury was caused by Rudy' system.

I am pretty sure that Nelson and Adelman were never locked out of the playoffs for four years. So where are you going with that?

What privilege are you talking about? Are we to just continue to hangout with Rudy and the boys down at the Y. This is serious business. When Jackson went in with his system it worked immediately so do not say it does not happen. Best privilege is to win which JVG seem more passionate about. Passion, Codell, passion. The man says he wants to win now. Not tomorrow, not the next day. Now. The definition of the apple is underperforming players. Whatever % LAL had the man got fired because he did not meet expectations. Similarly your boy got fired for the same reason. How much more apples you want than that? If it smells, and tastes like an apple, it is an apple. You want me to avoid the core truth! The man did not deliver. He knows it and so should you.

It is not a matter of Harsh, if you are keeping track, keep track. After 1995, Rudy had the talent to at least win one more championship.

That Les comment was consistent with my projection. Unfortunately we relied on the wrong man. But worry, JVG will get more juice out of that orange.

 

HOW DO YOU LIKE THEM APPLES CODELL?

Why cant we all be friends

 

Here is where you said it:

All that fluff about MoT and Ming is nothing more nothing less than a smoke-screen

Does this quote not imply that Mo's recovery from his injury was not an excuse for his lack of production and that it has to be blamed on something else (something Rudy is responsible for according to your theories)???

Nelson missed the playoffs 2 or 3 years in a row with Dirk, Nash and Finley.

Adelman made the playoffs, as a 7th and 8th seed and with a win% similar to Rudy's last two healthy seasons.

I don't why you CONTINUE to insist to use the Lakers with Jackson as an example. They were a top 62% win team when Jackson took over. They were already contending for a title and Jackson put them over the top. Not to mention the fact that he took over the most dominant player in the league. How is that AT ALL similar to last year's Rockets?? Please, its not even close. There is a huge between taking over a team that is already a title contender and one that isn't.

1) Its silly to say that JVG is or is not more passionate than Rudy. Rudy wreaked off passion.

2) Your apples still stink and aren't even red. To say that Yao underperformed under Rudy is just ludicrous. What more was expected out of Yao???? Funny how many felt his rookie season was an overwhelming success. I guess you don't. Steve is what he is. Don't blame Rudy for SF not being Jason Kidd, Gary Payton or Steve Nash (BTW, do you now how similar our offense's is to Dallas'??? Funny how Nash had no problem flourishing in that system yet Steve struggled).

3) Players make coaches, not the other way around DR. A coach is only as good as his best players. This is a fact based on history.

How can you even argue that Yao and SF are on the level of a Shaq, Kobe, KG, Dirk or Duncan???

Phil had the talent to win a title last year. Was he clueless last year?

Pop had the talent to win titles in between the two they have. Is he clueless those 3 years too??

I still find it funny how you thought Rudy was a good enough coach for us to be top 4 last year, but when we didn't meet your overblow expectations, he is clueless.

At least you are admitting that we are an orange going in and not an apple like elite are.

I can't wait to see who you blame when we don't meet your expectations next year, assuming we are healthy.

 

Codell, are you Rudy's brother in law? He did not make the playoff but you are insist on sighting the winning % to me. Why?

Implication and said are two different things. I cannot allow you the liberty to seek out implications from what I say, because you are likely to go all the way to NY before you are finished. I suggest you confine yourself to what I say. I said it is a smoke screen and then went on to tell you some of the fundamental weaknesses in his approach, including the issue of running a disciplined ship. How you conclude that I said youth and inexperience is never an excuse is just ming-boggling.

So Nelson and Adelman never missed the playoffs 4 years in a row.

Yes Rudy wreaked of passion but in a soft and docile sort of a way. There is nothing docile about JVG, especially in his demands and expectations from his players. Rudy took too much nonsense from his players. Too accommodating.

Yao Ming lost the rookie of year to Amare. He defiinitely underperformed. Rudy said Ming did things in a few months that he thought it would take him the whole year to pick up. That is a gigantic error in judgement. Rudy is not like me, you know, stuck in CT. He was all over the place watching Ming and putting plays on napkins and so and so on. He got caught low-balling the man. If your nature is to low-ball in the name of patience, then collectively, over time you will low ball your whole team and seal their fourth straight absence from the playoffs. Frank Johnson on the other hand helped ensure his talent storm through the league.

Sometime players make coaches but not all the time. Sometimes no matter how good your players are they cannot make a bad coach good. Hold it right there, Codell. No implications here. I just know you would come and say that I say Rudy is a bad coach. I just said all the good players in the world cannot make a bad coach good.

Again I argued about similarities like 1. underperforming cases (apples) and 2. coaches being fired. The fact that one case includes Shaq and the other included Ming is not the critical factor here.

If you find my expectation of last year funny what you thought about him being fired? You think this is a joke? Hardly. At the time Les fired Rudy, to the best of my knowledge, he was perfectly sober. Les certainly did not think it was funny when Rudy also failed to meet his expectations.

 

DR,

I am as much Rudy's brother in law as much as you are Les's "yes boy".

I don't get it once again. I cited Mo's slow recovery from injury and return to his pre achilles form and you flat out said "that is a smoke screen". By that, is it not safe to assume you see that as an excuse or at least not a substantial factor in why we didn't meet your expectations?

I naturally conclude that you feel youth and inexperience are not a an excuse because Yao and EG were both 21 years old, with only 1 year playing professionally between them, yet you won't back off the theory that we should have been top 4 last year (or better than the Spurs) and instead, blame Rudy for our perceived shortcomings.

Come on DR. Own up to your prediction that failed miserably. Instead of putting everything on Rudy's shoulders, admit, ADMIT, to the fact that the youth of Yao and EG, the slow recovery of Mo from injury and the poor decision making of Steve (who is in charge of a very similar offense to Dallas, where Nash has no problem exceuting it) are factors, not excuses and not anything Rudy could control.

Nelson missed 2 playoffs with a core of Dirk, Nash and Finley. Rudy missed 2 playoffs with Francis (when he was healthy) and 1 playoff with Francis and Yao together. Now Nelson has Dallas in the top 4 and contending for a title. Adelman had a similar win % in comparison to Rudy when he made it as an 8th/7th seed and was bounced in the 1st round. The point is, both of those got better, with the same coach and same players over a period of

Don't sit there and try to tell me that El Nino/Rudy brought Yao along too slowly. Was Rudy "low balling" Yao in the name of patience early in the season when Yao was thrown out of position on O and D??? Was rudy "low balling" Yao when Yao wouldn't take it strong to the hole??? 2/3/4 years. Yet, no one called Nelson clueless when Nash/Finley and Dirk were developing and no one called Adelman clueless when he was barely making the playoffs and getting bounced with a core of Webber/Peja/Divac.

Yao was not ready to contribute to start the season and Yao was absolutely exhausted at the end of the season. Yet, you say Rudy was too patient and low balled him. Unfreakinbelievable. I feel secure in knowing that most felt his rookie campaign was a success.

I call more BS on your players making coaches and vice versa theory. Why was Byron Scott a 26 win coach with questionable talent, yet a 52 win coach after he aquires the best playmaker in the league?? Why did Nelson and Adelman both get fired from GS for having sub .500 records with GS, yet, are now considered top tier coaches??? Think about that for a second.

You call Rudy "clueless" and say that "any coach worth his weight in gold would have made the playoffs". This speaks for itself with regards to wheter or not you think Rudy is a bad coach. Don't get put off when I make that conclusion.

Next, you were using Jackson/Lakers as a comparison to what JVG can do for this team (you said Jackson turned it around so well see what JVG does). So it absolutely is factor when you are comparing the Lakers to us because we weren't a top seed, 62% win team last year with the most dominant player. It is easier for a coach to take a team that was a) Already contending for a title b) Already a top seed and c) Has the most dominant player and put them over the top for a title than it is for a coach to take a lottery team, building around a 22 year old center who is still adjusting tot he league and turning that team into a title contender. Apples and oranges and that is my point.

Last, I absolutely do find your expectation of last year hilarious because it was so far out of line in comparison to what the majority of NBA insiders felt and predicted as well as the vast majority on this BBS.

Keep running to Les. We all know that is the gospel with regards to how this team matches up with the rest of the league.

 

To quote from the great R2K (thanks R2K):

"Plonk"