Suns, Warriors and Rockets all candidates for Utah's caproom (ESPN SPECULATION)

And my point was, what difference does it make if they were weaker than they were last week. Seems it makes more sense to compare them to what they had at the end of last season. Thats like saying "Cuttino Mobley sprained a thumb that will take 3 weeks to heal so therefore, the Rockets are a weaker team than they were yesterday or last week".

But if you want to compare their situation, day to day, when they are not even in competition, then knocks yourself out.

Clark could never even matchup with a player like Shaq. Millers gives them a bigger body and a long term replacement for Divac. Miller is a much better fit at the post for them than Clark was. However, if they fail to sign JJ (which is unlikely seeing as how the Clark deal was made to free up room to sign him), then they are indeed a weaker team. If they resign him, they are definitely not any weaker than they were at the end of last season and the case can certainly be made, and is being made, that they have improved their situation.

They Kings aren't all that mature as far as age. They have several core players in their mid-late 20s and the rest (besides Divac) are in their early 30s (prime).

Also, I wouldn't quite say we "handled them". We beat them in a close game early in the season @ home, blew them out in another game @ home when they didn't have Webber and lost twice in Sacramento (one blowout and one close one). We might have shown we can play them tight, but we have a long way to prove we are nearly as good against the rest of the league. Long way to go.

DR, not only according to me are they another year or so away from contending, but according to most people that cover the Rockets and the NBA, they feel the same way. Not one publication last year picked the Rockets to be top 4 (alot of them didn't even pick them for the playoffs). I would suspect that we'll see more pick them this year, but I would be SHOCKED to see anyone pick them for a top 4 finish.

So please, quit acting like I am the only one who doesn't expect the Rockets to contend for another year or so. Very few people have any delusions of grandeur, even on this BBS.

JVG may, or may not be a better coach than Rudy. If he is a better coach, he certainly isn't a good enough coach to take a team, with a roster that hasn't really changed, and make a 16 game difference. So please, "dont give me that crap".

 

Sane,

I also agree that our team, as presently configured, is not going to improve, and other than Yao and Steve, is completely expendable for the right deal.

That includes Mobley, who I also agree needs to be replaced in favor of a swingman who better compliments Steve and Yao.

My problem was the way you went about fixing it. I prefer to think about and discuss realistic possibilities, not personal wishes.

By this, I mean feasible solutions

My personal favorite of late: I've heard that JVG may be interested in bringing in some of his former Knicks to help teach our young guys how to win. (similar to what BParcells did with the Cowboys with Young, Anderson, Glenn)

To me, this seems very realistic because:

1) They've proven with the Spree deal that they are not content

2) With McDyess still out, they have absolutely NOTHING at C/PF

3) NY is always willing to take on salary

So, this is what I've been tossing around:

We send MoT, Cato, and Mobley
for
KThomas, TKnight, and CWard

Obviously, this may need tinkering, and if we could dupe them into adding Houston for Mooch, I would love it.

From NY's pov, they get a legit C in Cato, a vet PF to score in place of Dice, and rid themselves of Ward and Knight, who's huge contracts are languishing on the bench anyway.

For the Rocks, we get a tough PF, a decent backup for Yao to replace Cato, and Ward can't possibly be worse than Mooch, can he?

As I said, if possible, I'd love to get Houston, or even SAnderson again if he'd go for it (new coach, system?), but I'm not sure how willing they would be to move either.

So Sane, this is our new, reconfigured team, all through one deal:

Yao/Knight
KThom/EG
Rice/Boki
Houston or SAnderson/Pike
Steve/CWard

What do you think? We may not be clearly better or worse, but at least we are more mature and a whole lot tougher, not to mention JVG's former players may aid the transition for our two cornerstones.

Anyway, no matter what we may disagree about, I still think you make more sense in your proposals than Codell and some of the other stuff I've read in response to your ideas.

 

All right. You could be right cuz they did give up Sprewell for Keith Van Horn. First of all.....Mobley is way better than Charlie Ward...Cato owns Travis Knight...and yeah...Kurt Thomas is better than Maurice Taylor. We would be giving up a lot of talent for Kurt Thomas plus CRAP. Who's going to start at the 2? NOW...if they added Allan Houston and we add Moochie.....then they would be giving up too much! Please explain to me your logic in a nice and kind explanation...

 

Does anyone remember Scot Pollard?? They didn't replace Clark with Miller, they replaced Clark AND Pollard with Miller. I know Pollard isn't a great backup C/PF, but he's better than MoTaylor if you ask me.

As far as the kings being weaker: The team revolves around Webber, Peja, and Bibby/Jackson. They can't get AS far without the role players: Christie brings D and a shot, Divac is a decent post presence, etc. Really though, the team is those 3 (or 4) guys with others supporting them. As long as those guys are playin like they play.... then the Kings are still the Kings.

 

Codell, I am sure that there were no NBA projecting experts who put the Nets in the finals two years ago. Having followed this team since the first days of Akeem I know contenders come from nowhere many times. Heck we won a championship seeded #6.
I guess if you are contender in this league you would be ranked in the top ten. Low and behold that is exactly where we are on the Sportsline.com ranking.

There is a lot of parity in this league and factors like injuries can play a big role. The talent cannot be denied. So it could come down to intangibles like chemistry. Eighty-two games is a long time and as the Spurs proved last year you can rebuild your team in a season and get previously non-producing players, like Jackson and Gino, to be highly productive in a system.

The entire starting five of the Kings, with the possible exception of Bibby are within 5% of their peak potential and that make them mature. There is no Zach Randolph or Q Woods that is going to come in and give that team a real shot of youth. The jury is still out on Gerald Wallace but it does not seem like he is in that class.

Finally I got you agree that we competed with the Kings last year. Our records, last year, against the current Sportsline.com top ten, which has us at #10, looks like this:

LAL: 2-2
SA: 1-3; 0-4 the year before
SAC: 2-2
NJ : 1-1;
DAl : 0-4; 2-2 the year before
Min : 2-2
Det :0-2; 1-1 the year before
NO : 1-1;
POR: 1-3

 

Uh, not exactly.

1.) They just traded Spree for Keith Van Horn.

2.) They used a lottery pick on Mike Sweetney, whose big body is pretty NBA-ready.

3.) They snagged a guy many thought would be a lotto pick in Lampe with their 2nd rounder.

4.) They still have Kurt Thomas.

5.) Guys like Othella and Weatherspoon are good enough to play some sort of time.

I could see NY perhaps wanting Cato, because they lack guys with legit center size and any sort of skills, but they have a plethora of 4/5 types that they could play with, especially in the East.

DearRock- Playing one of the 4 (make it 5, now that the Wolves have loaded up) to a draw hardly means much of anything. This team needs Yao and Eddie to develop for a couple more years before we can really wreak havoc in the West. codell is not saying that we'll never get there; he's just saying that we're not there yet, and I'd agree with him. BTW, Keon Clark over Brad Miller is laughable. Brad Miller was an all-star center this past year. There was a reason that Denver, Utah, and Sacramento were battling to give him a lucrative contract. Clark's body makes Eddie Griffin look like Kevin Willis.

 

Nike

KVH is a SF, even in the east

KThomas is a nice PF, but they've been playing him at C, where I think Cato is an upgrade, assuming they will get MoT to play PF until Dice is back

About Sweetney, the most common anaysis I saw about this pick was that it was redundant; I.E. another undersized PF like Spoon.

Lampe was a 2nd rounder b/c of teams scared about getting him away from his Euro team, and besides, skinny Europeans never make an impact at a power position in the NBA as rooks.

And Othella, well, if he's something, I'd hate to see nothing.

Sane

Yes, I agree without Houston the deal looks lopsided, but without Mobley, I think it is lopsided in our favor.

My thinking was, if they get Mobley, they would be glad to get a cheaper, younger replacement, so keeping Houston would make no sense.

 

DR,

1) Nets play in the East. Not really applicaple as a comparison to our team (did you know the Nets only had a .500 (aprox) record against the West that year).

2) The Rockets of 95 are no where near applicable or comparable. We had to HOFers on that team, were one year removed from a title (with essentially the same cast + Drexler) and had the best player in the league on our team.

3) The Spurs of last year, while in a similar situation with regards to the integration of youth, rookies, etc., has something we didn't: Tim Duncan. If we were going into this season knowing that Yao can and will play at an MVP level like Duncan, then I would be more inclined to agree with you.

4) The Kings have players like Peja, Bibby, Miller and Jackson that are just hitting their prime. No reason why they can't improve and surely we can't expect a drop off. Even if I were to stipulate that they are "mature", then what leads you to believe that we are going to make up 16 games on them??? Again, I say the loss of Keon Clark and us gaining JVG is not going to make up that difference. Not this coming season anyway. (as NikeSTRAD clarified, I do feel we will compete with the top dogs down the road, but it will take another year or so of taking our lumps before we can be considered elite).

5) Sportsline.com has us ranked #7 in the West with Phoenix right behind us (not top 4). Not sure how this poll supports your case.

Also, with regards to the records you posted, according to that, we were 10-20 against those teams and 8-16 against WC teams (overall 14-20 against the teams ahead of us from last season that made the playoffs). Coincidentally, Sac was 15-12. Thats a 7 game difference and a 9 game difference against the rest of the league.

So how is that applicaple in supporting a top 4 finish?

FYI, we were 4-12 against the top teams in our division. With the exception of Utah, the other teams have at least maintained the status quo or improved themselves.

 

I want KENNY Thomas back NOT KURT Thomas!!!!

 

Knicks also picked up Slavko Vranes, that 7'5" Serbian or something with their last 2nd round pick. They are not set at PF/C but they do have a few bodies there.

 

Codell,

Contending has been my buzz word the last two months, so ease up on the top 4 for the time being. I see making the playoffs as a given and the question is whether we are going to contend now or two years from now like you believe. Of course I thought the same last year and so did Les and that is mostly why Rudy is gone. I have no problem believing that this team is going to be as good or better than the 50-51 win teams in the west last year. So I fully expect at least a 7 game improvement. All we need is a 6th seed to make some noise; especially if we meet the Kings. If they could not defend Ming last year it is not this year that they will.

You should be fair and list Pike as another offseason move that you did not mention. That is way more than just saying JVG is the only change. Probably you did not because you figure the loss of Posey makes it a wash.

How the poll helps my "contending" case? Well our team is definitely a developing team. Just look at the w's improvement last year. With a developing team you would expect it to be much improved after 82 games than after game 1. So going in at #10, I expect upward migration over the span of the season. Sufficient migration to reach contending status.

I hope I have cleared that up. Sane was so right about you.

 

What do you mean you dont care? So basically you'll cheer for
any 5 idiots running up and down the court?

You must care or else you wouldnt have an opinion to anything
regarding the ROCKETS! Just admit it. You care and you're a little
biased towards come of the players.

A guy like yourself would get the same thrill watching the WNBA!
Its because yuou dont care? it it doesnt make any sense my friend.

 

Whoa DR. Seems you are backtracking. You have insinuated that last 4 weeks that we were contending with the likes of Minny, SA, etc. There is no doubt about that. I never once said we weren't contending for a playoff spot. I said we weren't contending with the likes of those teams are a title. You have taken exception to that. Stand by your position.

If a top 4 finish wasn't what you mean, then why were you willing to do a double or nothing bet?

I hope you don't take offense to this DR, but you felt we were top 4 material and Les called us "one of the greatest teams ever assembled". Most sources that have objective credibility, predicted we would finish exactly where we did. Hence, the Rudy firing/resignation was not something that everyone felt was right.

Stop blaming Rudy for this team not being Top 4 last year. That excuse is very pathetic.

Despite the fact that those 51 win teams (save Portland) improved their roster a great deal??? Again, you are entitled to your assesment DR, just like you were last year.

I said largely unchanged because letting Posey go and signing Pike does not change this roster enough to make a huge dent in the win column. In fact, many on this same BBS have argued that it makes us weaker, including yourself.

I credit our win improvement to being much more healthy that we were the year before plus Yao.

BTW, our winning % was much worse in the 2nd half of the season than it was in the 1st half. Not sure how you said we were better or "improved" after 82 than we were after game 1.

Sane's opinion of me or anything else Rockets related hardly means anything to me.

 

LH,

Exactly. I will cheer for anyone wearing a Rockets uniform, even if they are the 5 worst players in the league because I am a Rockets fan and will always root for whoever plays for us.

I don't follow the Comets. Again, I am a ROCKETS (R O C K E T S since you don't seem to understand) fan.

Let me know if you need any other clarification since it is obvious that you are a real Mensa Member.

"Admit it".

 

Codell anytime you have difficulty understanding illogical things from last year like the team going south as the season went on, just plug in Rudy as the explanation. I am not joking. Any coach worth his weight in gold would have made the playoffs. He was fired for that. At least I will not hear him lament about how many different lineups he had to use. He simply had no clue and that is why he was fired and that is why I take the liberty of factoring that into my projections.

When I say contending I mean contending for the title. You do not have to be top four to do so. In fact with the parity in the west, the differences are small.

 

Once again, no offense, but this is a real cop out on your part. Everything is on Rudy's shoulder, yet the fact that Yao was a tired rookie learning the league, the fact that Mo was not 100% recovered from his injury, the fact that Eggie did not improve one bit with regards to playing fundamentally sound bball, and the fact that Francis continued to have problems with his decision making can not fairly be placed on Rudy's shoulders (BTW, if you remember correctly, alot of these reasons were things that I was basing my prediction on last year (Yao would be a rookie and would hit the wall like most rookies do; Taylor would probably need most, if not all of the season to recover from injuries; Steve is not a proven floor leader, etc.)).

I am dying to see who you are going to blame if the Rockets don't meet your expectations again next year. Surely you aren't harsh enough to blame a brand new coach?? Or does JVG get a free pass for one season???

You seem to feel that its coaches, and not players, that matter the most to team success. A coach is only as good as his best players. Ill stand by the theory that our best players just weren't as good as Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, KG, Dirk, Nash, Peja and Webber. No coaching by Rudy would change the fact that Yao isn't Tim Duncan, EG isn't KG and Steve is not Kobe (or even Nash for that matter).

1) Lets not base everything we say on "If Les says so, then it must be right". Again, not everyone, including league insiders, felt Rudy deserved to be pushed out (myself included).

2) What do you mean different lineups??? Posey, Griff, Yao, Cat and SF started about 75% of all the games. I never once heard Rudy complain about changing lineups or make any other excuses for that matter.

3) I find it very laughable that Rudy is now "clueless". When we were discussing the Spurs and Rockets last year and comparing the teams, you made it clear that Rudy was definitely better than Pop. Yet, now he is clueless??? Funny how a year, in which not everything went according to your plan (yet went according to most everyone else's) renders Rudy clueless.

You seem to be running around in cirlces, but I am going to leave that alone (contending for a title but not contending for a top 4 spot??; in that case, every team in the league is contending for a title going in, based on that theory).

Parity exists on different levels. SA, Sac, Dallas, LA and Minny are in a class by themselves. You have parity in that class. Then there is Portland, Phoenix, us and maybe GS or Seattle in 2nd class. There is parity in that class. I don't see how there is parity between the two classes though.

 

Steve Francis/Moochie Norris
Cuttino Mobley/Eric Piatkowski
Adrian Griffin/Bostjan Nachbar/Glen Rice
Eddie Griffin/Maurice Taylor
Yao Ming/Kelvin Cato

Will Glen Rice be traded?

At point guard...we can play Francis, Norris, and Mobley.
At shooting guard...we can play Mobley, Piatkowski, AGriffin, and maybe Nachbar or Rice.
At small forward...we can play Eddie Griffin, Adrian Griffin, Nachbar, Piatkowski, Rice, and Mobley.
At power forward...we can play both Griffins, Maurice Taylor, Kelvin Cato, Glen Rice, and maybe Yao Ming.
At center...we can play Yao, Cato, and maybe EGriffin.

Unless Boki really sucks horribly, this is a good opportunity to trade Glen Rice! We really don't need him.

 

Codell, we just have to agree to disagree. I do not know which insiders you are talking about and half of them do not give a flying duck. Les is the person in the kitchen and I who look at 82 of our games, more than most of those insiders, is just as qualified to call Rudy out. I have followed the team for a long time. The best decision Les could have made is the one that he made. Your laundry list of reasons for our failure all lead back to Rudy. His system is not an award winning one and there was no indication that things were going to change. The issue of number of lineups came from Rudy and his people. The quotes of the players after the firing is clear. They all say things are going to change and all seem to highlight discipline as one of the major ones.

Discipline, alone as a factor, would explain the failings. When we lose so many games against weak teams, it was not because of Ming hitting a wall or MoT working his way back or Eg not making the right changes. It is the lack of discipline and the absence of organized and potent guidance. Simple as that. This is the only coach who was not able to utilize sure hall of famer Pippen. Pippen's worst years were under Rudy so it is no surprise to me that other highly talented players struggle in his system.

Codell I doubt that I said Rudy was better than Pop. Based on the way you have miscontrued my points is this banter, I am not surprise that you can suggest something like that. I must say that I am more impressed by Pop today that one year ago; however, I have been disgusted with Rudy now for some time. His nice image and longevity with the team got him a long way, a lot futher than his x's and o's, let put it that way.

Why you cannot see a team can be contending for a title even if it is not in the top 4. Lakers were contending and they were top 5 not four. In August with a lot of changes still going on it seems logical that I may holdoff until October before being more specific on top 4. There is the learning curve factor related to the new system to consider. Just understand that I expect this team to be in the class of all those top 4 teams this year while you expect that two years from now.

I am running around in circles trying to explain every little thing to you. Again it is simple. You see us contending two years from now, I do not. You really do not need to know to the smallest detail who and why we differ. You won the bet last year and may have an opportunity to win again. Let's leave it at that.