Suns, Warriors and Rockets all candidates for Utah's caproom (ESPN SPECULATION)

I agree. This is going to be Mo T's year to prove himself worthy or not. He was definitely showing signs of returning to his old form. If he can consistently produce points, especially off doubles on Yao, then he will start earning his paycheck.

Something else I noticed last year is that Mo was mixing it up a LOT more inside. Hopefully this trend will continue. I don't think it's time to give up on Mo yet, but if he has another stinker season or shows up to camp 50 pounds overweight again, it's over for sure.

 

I was just thinking wasnt it said a couple of months ago that New Orleans was movin to the Western Confrence because there were too many Eastern Confrence teams with the addition of Charlotte? I was just wondering if that was coming into effect this year or 2004-2005 when the "Bobcats" actually start playing!? Cuz New Orleans wasnt that bad or were they?

 

How is the Glen Rice part of the deal "for cap space?" It would take $9m in capspace for Utah to even get Glen Rice, unless we are going to take $9m in contracts back.

There is no sum gain in capspace to take on Glen Rice's contract, unless you give the Rockets a huge contract in return.

simple math, no?

 

FYI, Mo has never scored more than 17.1 ppg in a season.

 

What if Utah were willing to take on some long term salaries instead of just expiring contracts? I'd bet they would, if they liked the players that were being offered.

How about Cato/Mobley for Harpring straight up?

Utah gets a defensive starting center in Cato that rebounds & blocks shots, a starting SG in Mobley that brings the same offensive production of Harpring, & only eats up about $8.2 million of their $23+ million in cap space. They could then offer Derrick Coleman a modest contract to be their starting PF, & they still have Ostertag's expiring contract for next year. Then, they could resign Mark Jackson for one year to be their PG & tutor both Lopez/Mo Williams as their future PG's. Their lineup won't be devestating, but they should be very competitive & in very good position to make another strong run in free agency next year. Their lineup would be something like:

C: Cato/Ostertag/Collins/Amaechi
PF: Coleman/Padgett/Amaechi
SF: Kirilenko/Pavlovic
SG: Mobley/Stevenson
PG: Jackson/Arroyo/Lopez/Williams

We gain $8.2 million in cap relief now, while retaining the cap relief Rice's expiring contract will give us next year. We get a starting SF with the same offensive output of Mobley & move Cato's bloated (for a backup) contract off the books. We can then match Posey's offer & insert him at the SG position. After matching Posey, we'll still be about $3.7 million below where we are right now. We then offer Stepania about $2 million to be our backup center, leaving us about $1.7 million to resign T-Mo & another FA for the minimum. Our lineup could look something like this:

C: Ming/Stepania/FA(Jelani McCoy?)
PF: Griffin/Taylor/T-Mo
SF: Harpring/Rice/Nachbar
SG: Posey/Piatkowski
PG: Francis/Moochie

With Posey & Harpring in the lineup, we increase our size & Posey elevates our defense at the guard position. At times, we could have Francis/Piatkowski/Harpring in the game at the same time, popping 3ptr's. There's no way a team could afford to collapse on Ming with those 3 sitting at the 3pt line.

Oh well, it's just a thought.

 

No. No. No. No helping out Utah. Do not help them up.

Seems like we'll probably keep Rice anyway. I think ESPN reported the Clips won't match for Odom; and so the Heat will likely use cap space to get him, the cap space we might have used to trade away contracts.

 

I thought that they said LA would match for Odom.

 

How about signing Derrick Coleman???

How about trading for one of the following players who a) Fill a low post role and b) Have years that expire sooner than Mo's and c) Have overall less money due:

Christian Laettner
Marcus Fizer
Marcus Camby
Lorenzen Wright
Adonle Foyle
Erik Dampier
Danny Fortson
Dale Davis
Keon Clark

Some of those players may or may not be better than Mo, but they are all comparalbe and they all fill a low post role that Utah supposedly is "desperate" for.

Well, first of all, Sloan has not gotten along well with Amechi or Ostertag. That has been well documented. Second, I was very clear in your implication. My point was, there is a difference between being stuck with someone for 1 or 2 more years versus 4 or 5. Furthermore, its easier to tolerate situations like Tag and Amechi when you are not paying them as much as you would have to pay Mo (total value).

 

I think you are the one that is confused RF as I was stating the yearly average and not taking into consideration the sliding scale.

My error on the length of Mo's contract as I thought it was 7 years total.

And yes, they are better options because both Amaechi and Tag are FAs after this year, while Mo is locked up for 3 years after that (aprox $24-$26 mil). If you can't see that salary committments of $10 mil versus $24-26 mil is a much better situation for Utah, then we'll just have to disagree. Per Sane's article, Utah's GM tends to agree with my take on this.

 

No, I call it like I see it because I have no reason to underestimate or overestimate a player's value for the sole purpose of making a RealGM trade work.

No, I proclaim my reasoning to be sound because I have no incentive to trade or not trade every player on our roster (unlike you) and therefore, I am unbiased. I don't fabriate reasons in order to justify silly trades.

Doesn't fit our system?? Hilarious. JVG has not coached one game. We have no clue how this offense will run, yet, you already declare that Mo "doesn't fit our system".

This is a cop out Sane and you know it. Another fabricated reason for trading someone. Glad you know all about what our offensive structure will be like. Perhaps you can elighten us all and explain why Mo does not fit a system when he has not played 1 single minute in it.

I am glad you can at least recognize your own problem ("I personally think we need to change all the supporting cast.").

Over the past year, I think you have posted trades with every single team in the league, trading away every single one of our players except for Yao.

I am going to start calling you Mr. Steinbrenner. "If the team is not successful, just trade everyone except your best player and start all over." That seems to be your theory Sane and it is backed up by the hundreds of trades you propose every day.

Yes, his numbers went down. Pretty indicative that a player has lost something and they a good part of the story.

The rest of the story is told by watching Mo being slower than ever to rotate on D and watching his man blow by him because of bad lateral movement.

The rest of the story is told by watching Mo being slow to get into rebounding position.

The rest of the story is told by watching Mo get "out jumped" for a rebound because he is still lacking explosiveness.

The rest of the story is told by watching Mo miss practices and/or games because his surgically repaired ankle is stiff.

The rest of the story is told by watching Mo not be able to get his starting position back from one of the worst starting PFs in the league last year.

I sincerely believe I have not only looked at Mo close enough, but that I can 100% say, without a doubt, he is not 100% the player he was 2 years ago (not to say he won't be eventually).

Last, I ask you again, to look at your own reasoning for trading away Mo. If you sincerely believed that Mo was a "19PPG scorer" and was "fully recovered from his injury" AND was a "legit low post scorer" AND was "worth his contract", then you wouldn't have him listed in almost every trade you propose on here.

PS - Please stop talking about whether or not players "fit our system" when you have no clue what our system will be.

 

Just my 2 cents...

1) A volatile and emotional coach like Jerry Sloan has little to no interest in players like Mo Taylor or Kelvin Cato.

2) If the Jazz need to spend more cap $ and/or fill out their roster, there are many more attractive options than tying up $9+m in a single player named Glen Rice. (See codell's list).

3) This could be Sloan's last coaching season. From what I have seen of Sloan's personality from my TV, he is not thinking at all about next summer...just getting tough-minded players for the upcoming season.

 

This is ur original quote:

If u screwed up on the number the 1st time, just admit and go on.

If u r still confused why u should not be talking about avg salary when the guy has 1 yr left in his contract then u r hopeless.

U still haven't suggested those better options? U just danced around the subject again!

 

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Did I not say that I didn't quote the sliding scale figures and instead posted the average per year? I thought I made that clear. Please re-read my post.

If "u r" still confused that the point of my post was to make it clear that the overall money owed to Amechi and Ostertag next year is less than the total value left on Mo's contract, then "u r" the one that is hopeless. It is pretty simple math ya know (i.e. $10 mil < $24-$26 mil).

Look 5 posts above this one.

You are not very observant this morning RF. Missing posts. Misreading posts. Good Lord.

And please don't talk about dancing around subjects. (still waiting on your response and some of your new fangled bball theories from our last discussion).

 

Mo won't be scoring 20 ppg any time soon if he continues to eat at the Cheesecake Factory!!! I wonder what he's doing right now...

 

Sane,

1) I know I am not biased, because I don't care whether we trade Mo or keep him. I don't care if we trade Yao or Steve or keep them. I root for whoever is on this team to fit in and do their best to help us win.

I am realistic. How you can confuse that with bias is beyond me.

2) You are still saying that Mo "doesn't fit our system". This is a very silly statement as you have absolutely no idea how our system will be run under JVG.

3) How can you say that Mo is not a compliment to Steve and Yao??? You said earlier that Mo is a proven low post scorer. Seeing as how he is a reserve on this team, wouldn't that be beneficial for us to have off the bench???

I'd actually have to disagree completely with that anyway. Yao and Mo could potentially work nicely together (both can play the low and high post).

4) You are the one that is contradictary with your trades Sane. You say you value Mo highly yet, you want a better supporting cast. Well obviously, Mo is not a very good part of the supporting cast then.

And if you are thinking about addtion by subtraction, then you absolutely are not telling the truth about how you value Mo (and you are again contradictary). You are saying that we are benefiting by trading away something that has good value. Makes no sense.

5) Utah needs a ton of things. Until proven otherwise, Mo is NOT a 20PPG scorer, nor is it rational to assume he automatically will be just because he is on a bad team (lets not forget he was on a bad Clipper team and he only scored 17PPG there and that was before suffering a major injury (from which, he is not yet recovered no matter what you think).

6) Sane, if you think Mo's ankle is the same, you are just being intellectually dishonest with yourself. If Mo's was 100% recovered, he would have been starting. Player's production don't drop by 40% for no good reason.

I advise you to brush up on achilles injuries. It is one of the more devastating injuries a basketball player can suffer.

No doubt, Mo had all those problems to begin with. The problem was compounded even more so. I never said he was good on lateral quickness or D to begin with, but there was no doubt that his quickness and explosiveness wasn't what it was 2 years ago (for Christ's sake, Mo even said this himself a few times last year when he had to sit out practices and whatnot).

I get you to start a poll Sane and ask the board if they think Mo was close to being the player he was 2 years ago. You will be suprised by the results.

There is doubt about whether he can be the player he was 2 years ago, although, it is VERY possible he can be. At this time, Mo has not proven he is 100% recovered . 100% recoveries from major injuries are never a given. Yet, almost as an afterthought, you assume they are.

7) I am very glad that you listed the negatives of all the players I listed. You know why? Because you proved a point, and that is, just like those players have "baggage" so does Mo. I like it how you fail to mention any of those player's positives in the same way that you fail to consider how Utah would view Taylor's negatives.

I will play the same game:

Maurice Taylor: 4 years left on a $8 mil per year contract (fact). Was a backup on a lottery team last year and his production was not what it was before the injury (fact). Suspended by the league once for substance abuse (fact). Below average rebounder (fact). Questionable work ethic.

BTW, low post scoring is not all that matters Sane. You can say that some of those players don't have Mo's scoring ability. You can also say that Mo doesn't have nearly the defensive or rebounding abilities that some of those player's have.

8) Why do you keep assuming that in order for Utah to meet the minimum salary, that they want to do it with just one contract???? Utah is hurting at more than one position and has a severe lack of debth. Instead of taking on Mo's contract and filling up one position, can they not trade/sign 2 or 3 players at that price that would fill more holes than Mo could? As with most of your trades, you fail to consider the fact that team's have options.

 

Sane,

Refusing to think things through? Because I don't agree that Utah sees Mo as a valuable commodity?? Because I don't agree that is 100% recovered from his injury?? Because I don't agree that Utah would trade Harping for Mo or that Mo is even worth Hapring?? Because I don't agree that Utah trading Harping for Mo would be one of their best options?? I will just have to continue not thinking things through and find reasons to live with myself for it.

For someone that posts a ton of trades and who proclaims that every single one of them makes sense, you sure can't handle it when anyone legitimately critiques the pros and cons of them. You are really exposing yourself as being quite immature Sane.

Thanks for the discussion.

 

Stop whining Sane! Codell is not acting like he's right and you're wrong! He is simply backing up his ideas with facts, where in which your proposterous trades have many holes. I am sure that many of the posters here would in fact like to get rid of Taylor but what remains are the facts that he's overpaid, plays no defense, and he's coming off and injury. Harpring for Mo is a joke. Harpring has proven himself to be a legit starter. Taylor on the other hand has proven nothing.