Suns Lose to Hawks. Polish the MVP Trophy for Nash

How in the world does Wade deserve MVP Francis 4 Perez?? They stunk it up w/o Shaq, below .500 without him, in the friggin EAST. Thats unacceptable. Its Nash, Nowitzki, then TMAC. No one else is even close.

 

They don't. That's exactly my point.
The Suns have probably the most talented team in the league. Dallas ain't bad but they can't touch the suns.

Just look at the top 6

PHO:

Nash
Amare
Shawn Marion
Barbosa
Diaw
Thomas
Bell


DAL:

Nowitzki
Howard
Terry
Dampier
Stackhouse
Harris


Dallas better?
Leaving Nash vs Nowitzki out of the debate:

Amare >> Howard
Marion > Terry
Thomas = Dampier
Barbosa > Harris
Bell > Stackhouse

How does Dallas have a superior team as far as player quality is concerned?

 

this is conjecture on your part, what do you have to verify your opinion?

 

How does Dallas have a superior team as far as player quality is concerned?

stats

 

Just look up the PER.

Using Roland ratings to compare a team that plays only seven deep to any other team is disingenous.

 

by the way this proves a point of mine. one side accuses the other of cliches such as nash makes his team better, another side has a cliche that nash's team is fortunate to be on a great team of players. irrationality rules on both sides, certainly because we are lay fans, so lets be honest here, put aside the cliches, and support our opinions by facts, instead of pure cliches, and subjectivity.

 

i have, and it doesn't inclucde, at least on the webpage you gave stackhouse and george, so

 

so how do you compare a team?

i used 8 and 5. what other thing do you suggest? looking at the numbers, they have about an 8 man rotation after that minutes tail off.

 

Which stats?

Are you going to claim that over the hill Stackhouse rocks the world with his whoppin .423 shooting percentage?

If you take away Dirk & Nash from the teams the rest of Phoenix is clearly superior to the rest of the Dallas team. If you don't see that, I can't help you.

 

why is using roland rating in this case not right... i'm not trying to be cheeky, honest question

 

You have to download the data to see stackhouse and george. wanna know why? they are worse than diop & his fabulous PER of 9.something

 

stats, not subjective opinion, whatever stats that are available, and i am choosing the best ones, whatother stats are there?

 

Because you can't expect backup players to play well when they are not used regularly.

D'Antoni only uses his best few players. It's his philosophy, he isn't forced todo so, he just believes in putting his best players on the floor as much as possible. He's often said it, it's well known.

The result is, that the rest of the team sees little playing time and as a result doesn't play as well. For that reason, you see a sharp dropoff after the regular rotation players.

 

according to per top 5 is just about even.

 

so according to per top 5, mavs aren't better or worse than suns. but then you would add a caveat, you can't compare suns to any other team based on rotation, then my question is, why are you comparing suns being more talented than mavs? or is that JUST with roland ratings?

 

but why specifically not with roland ratings?

 

I would like to apologise free-riding fracis 4 prez's earlier statistics - I am sure he spent sometime putting this table up .

But its clear that Duncan, Dirk Douchenbag, KG, Wade and Yao have higher ratings than Nash in every single above mentioned statistics. Now I know Roland rating has to be taken with a pinch of salt, because the statistic can be screwed with lack of viable replacements down the bench, but I do think it fits in perfectly fine with the point of argument Soybean Fanatic was making.

If indeed Mavs are stronger and more balanced team as you suggests then there is a prima facie reasons to suggests Dirk's Roland rating should be lower than Nash's. But its not. I do think part of reason for such discrepancies is that (1) Leandro Barbosa, a natural replacement for Nash, is one heck of baller himself, and (2) Mavs doesn't have equal counterpart in terms of Dirk's replacement, but I doubt that above mentioned factors account for the entire discrepancies. Furthermore, if we are talking about the most "valuable" player in terms of team success is concerned then Roland Rating suggests that Dirk is even more vital to Dallas scheme for the lack of his replacement than Nash is to the Suns.

A-3PO,

I think my position is neatly surmarised in Soy's post so I shall keep things concise. MVP has always been life time recognition award with certain free-for-all aspect to its result. Given that Nash has won two rather contentious to begin with as well illustrated by francis 4 prez, I see no reason to change the tradition this year. Moreover, by all statistical measure, Nash's individual production or even for that matter those representing "intangibles" suggests there are 5 guys in front of him. Obviously Yao cannot be taken into consideration, but we shouldn't use team's success to be some sort of hurdle criterion to eliminate choices. MVP is an award designed for individual recognition, hence individual merit should be given the priority with team's success acting as a supplementary data. KG's team is doing too poorly for my liking, but D.Wade, Dirk, TD should definetely get the priority IMO.

Most importantly, I am perfectly fine if Nash was elected within a procedure that invovles players, and coaches reviews. I just don't think a journalist like Stein is that better judgement of talent than say highly knowledgable Gurus here like Heypartner, or durvasa, and yourself A_3PO.

 

Comparing top 6 players PER:

DAL
Dirk 29.07
Josh Howard 21.03
Terry 18.20
Dampier 15.90
Harris 15.73
Diop 9.51

PHO
Nash 24.80
Amare 23.42
Marion 20.77
Barbosa 17.77
Diaw 12.91
Bell 12.42

DAL with Dirk: 109.34
PHO with Nash: 112.09

DAL w/o Dirk: 80.27
PHO w/o Nash: 87.29

I don't think the rest of the DAL bench makes up for that fat 7 PER difference if you take out Dirk & Nash.

So, who has the better team again?

 

um stackhouse?

 

Umm, Stackhouse is a very streaky and inefficient (check his fg%) player whose name is much bigger than his impact. Which is why he's not in the top 6 PER for Dallas and his PER is somewhere below Diop's.