Suns Lose to Hawks. Polish the MVP Trophy for Nash

woah, he is definitely one of the biggest PER sticking points b/c he scores way too high, but he was definitely great for a while. not all-time top 10 great, but probably right after moses malone and the Big 5 centers on the all time center list. the guy could score, score efficiently, and was even as good as hakeem defensively for a few years. his peak didn't last long enough and he obviously got the crap kicked out of him by hakeem in '95, but if not for hakeem's complete badassedness, he probably gets the title that year. i'd say he was the 2nd best player in 1995 even if not the rightful mvp. he was still a good "first banana," just not way up there like some others.

 

russell was fortunate enough to play with the Celtics is not an accurate critique because the only constant on those celtics teams is Russell. Cousy doesn't have 11 championships, nor does John Havlicek. people remember him because you can't help but remember a guy who's playing in the nba championship for a freakin decade.

 

He's in the same group with Patrick Ewing and Robert Parish.

 

Man, I don't care what you say. I'm just reading this thread and enjoying the show. *munches popcorn*

 

what's valuable to the suns isn't nash, it's his passing ability. a great passing pg. banks and barbosa are nice players (barbosa moreso than banks) but banks is more of a creating point guard and barbosa is a shooting guard. neither has a game that resembles nash, and they base their whole system on a pg with nash's passing skills.

trade nash for jason kidd and ask how much different it would be? kidd is also a fastbreak savant who knows how to lead a fastbreak offense. he'd be throwing passes off the backboard to amare and marion, hitting bell and barbosa and jones for open 3's and the suns offense would be great. if he can put up 14/8.7/8 on the nets, he could put up 15/11+/8 on the suns with their pace. they'd lose out big on nash's shooting but gain a little on rebounding and defense. kidd would be leading the league in assists by a wide margin like nash, the suns would run teams on the floor, they wouldn't be quite as good as with nash (say 38-14 or 37-15 instead of 40-12) but people would still think of kidd as driving the whole thing for a really good team, and every time kidd got hurt they would look a lot worse and people would start saying kidd makes and amare and marion.

and all b/c their system values a passing pg more than any other in the league and they have no backup who can remotely do it. it artificially inflates the value of any real good distributing pg. put someone like chris paul and his amazing passing ability in there and you see something similar in terms of a big drop off from when he plays and doesn't. with someone like deron williams, you'd even get pretty damn good midrange shooting that you don't get with kidd or paul. another big drop off would ensue.

now trade kidd with nash and put him on new jersey and what happens? are the nets 40-12 and dominating the league? no, nash probably puts up a really efficient 18 and 9 or so, and the nets have about a .500 record. people say nash is a really good point guard on a mediocre team and no one gives mvp talk a second thought.

and i don't think even people who say nash should be mvp can argue with any of that. put him in any other situation and no one thinks of him as mvp. and put any other great passing pg on the suns and they suddenly look ubervaluable (though not as much as nash i'll concede) b/c of the suns situation. so basically we're letting the situation dictate value, and not the player.

i mean i had to hear colin cowherd on mike and mike this morning claim steve nash is the most underrated player in the league b/c of how much he means to winning and losing after the suns just beat the clippers? that might be the most ludicrous thing uttered in the history of speech. a guy with 2 undeserved mvp's who many feel is a lock for a 3rd, when he's not the best player in the league nor does he have a title, is the most underrated? yeah, and derek jeter is the most underrated baseball player. if you're rated the best when you're not it's hard to be underrated. when we know he's not the best player and we've got people saying no one affects winning and losing more in a league where dwade practically wins a title by himself, then maybe that's got more to do with outside factors and not just him and we're all getting a little carried away with the praise. he's on a team that greatly values a skillset he has, but which is not unique to him and it unfairly rates him higher than superior players in some people's minds and it's not fair to all of those players.

well if winning is why steve nash should be getting the mvp, then how is russell, the biggest winner in bball history overrated? i mean i completely agree that he's overrated, but it seems inconsistent to trumpet nash for mvp and say russell is overrated. steve nash is fortunate to play on the phoenix suns. if he didn't, few people would think of him as anywhere near the mvp conversation, and i doubt you can argue with that.

 

he might be in the group, but he's at the top of the group and better than both of them.

 

not my fault if you don't see the humor in your idiocy

 

first of all it is arguable, mainly because nash doesn't play for the nets nor does kidd play for the suns, or any other PG. NOONE will ever know, and everything you have just said is pure conjecture on your part. i can agree that if you put nash in some situations, he might not be considered, but to say that in ANY situation would be getting carried away.

kidd is not the same type of pg nash is, they are two totally different players. aside from having "similar" numbers, i would doubt kidd would run the suns the same way

mvp is voted before playoffs, heat winning the championship had no bearing on the vote. flash was great, but still noone knew that the heat would rise to the title under wade last year. not a total surprise, but it wasn't like, of course wade is going to win the title for the heat.

nash is a great PG in a great system that fits exactly who he is, suns win with him, and without him aren't so great, noone knows if you put player X if the same thing would happen, but everyone knows this, when nash is in there, the suns do well.

there are reasons, but you choose to look past those reasons because you have a specific idea in your mind about how it should go about.

so really this is where the conversation is quite meaningless because one side has a very specific view and so do the other side. one gets into little details that really don't mean much, and tries to win a debate through that. when a side does win, then the other side claims nothing of the sort has happened, or nothing has been proven, and still maintains their own point of view. so good for you that you don't think nash is the mvp.

 

a lot, for a very simple reason: Kidd is nowhere the threat Nash is in the halfcourt game. The wouldn't probably miss a beat in the open court, but hey'd become much worse when the game slows down, just like every Kidd's team in history. Just look at the numbers his teams always collected over the years.

You need a guy with Nash's decision making, scoring, passing, shooting to run the Suns.

 

I'm 29, Russel retired like 9 years before I was born, so I've never seen him playing and didn't even live his times, grasped the perception people had on him back then.
All I have are old stories, stats and, of course, trophies.

As much as he had a lot of help for sure, you just can't overlook that his team won in every possible situation. When they were young and hungry. When they were old and tired. When they were dominating the RS and the clear cut favorites. When they needed to overachieve. In every damned situation that team delivered, when Russell was the leader.
Do you realize how hard keeping that sick level excellence must be? It's not just about skills, you need some serious dedication and mental toughness, I have a hard time downplaying someone able to achieve that.

Take Wilt: he was so much better? Probably H2H there was no comparison. He was a great defender, too, as athletic, bigger, stronger, unstoppable... but Wilt was too often on the wrong side of history. He lost in college, his powerfull Sixers lost to the old Celtics, his stacked Lakers lost to the Knicks with a cripple center. It's not like he never had a good team, but somehow he won much less than Russell.

I really can't understand how anyone can dismiss Russell, he's as good of a goat candidate as anyone.

 

http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=270228020

Looks like the MVP couldn't make up for the loss of Shawn Marion.

 

Exactly. I was debating how good Amare and Marion were and people were arguing how Nash made them. Well, Amare pretty much shot jumpers and free throws tonight. If not that then his time was spent making moves towards the basket. Nash played well offensively but was tentative and they clearly missed Marion. They need all 3 to win. Their rotation is too small

 

i'm glad someone else brought this to the top so i wouldn't look like the nash-hater who did it. i think it's time to polish the mvp trophy for marion. 77% winning percentage with him, 0% without him. they were 14-0 against the east on the road, 100%. 0% without him. can't deny his value to this offense. couldn't even break 100 against the sixers who don't care anymore. sorry dirk, this is marion's trophy!


in all seriousness, this game would've apparently made them the first team to ever sweep the other conference on the road. their last game against the east on the road and they lose to the sixers of all teams. they need their marion back.

 

The thing about me is that I'm not even a Nash hater. He's actually one of my favorie players and I think he's the best pg in the league. However, he needs Marion and Amare. They are much better players then Nash lovers give them credit for. Marion will never get the credit he deserves. Amare won't on this board b/c he won the ROY over Yao

 

Late reply (I've been busy):

Oh look, ANOTHER "clever" one liner.

Let me tell you a couple things about how to make a GOOD parody:

1. The person/thing you're spoofing has to actually be stupid or worthy of criticism.
2. You're supposed to show how smart and witty you are by displaying an understanding of the subject matter and pointing out stupid parts of it.

Repeating something (ESPECIALLY the lazy, literal cut-and-paste job you did) does NOT make a parody. That's the kind of crap thinking behind recent turkeys such as Epic Movie.

And as I said before, it was highly inappropriate (it would be considered trollish behavior on a number of forums) for you to SPAM those worthless, repetitive, shallow, parrot posts across several pages.

And when I call you on it, your only reply is a vapid one-liner saying I'm too stupid to see my own stupidity.

 

i have COMPLETE empathy for YOU, it must be hard to live without hearing a word of english. it must be easy to forget what hello means without having to look in a dictionary.

YOUR ideas about the MVP are lousy, it really is that simple.


I fully expect a "Clever" reply

 

just like you waited until after 2 suns wins w/o nash to start this thread when they did lose. this was marion's first game missed with nash playing and it was a loss so that's why people jokingly brought it up.

either way, i'm not a nash hater. i'm a nash for mvp hater.