[Sunday Times]Tibetan monks beaten as police halt dissent

So, let me get this straight. You Americans think that you have the moral high ground to criticize the Chinese for doing something that you Americans don't approve, even though you Americans are guilty of much something much worse. Then when the Chinese tell you that you Americans have no idea what you are talking about, you turn it around and accuse the Chinese for wanting to repeat the bad things that you Americans have already done and are still doing. I'm afraid that your argument doesn't make any sense to me.

Keep what up?

I'm afraid that your notion of the Chinese believing that "China gets to be a territorial expansionist in the 20th century because the US was expansionist in the 19th C." is entirely yours. Can you actually quote a pro-China post in this thread that has that argument? I, for one, have never argued for such a thing. For all the Chinese that I know, they don't accept criticism from America, Britain or many of the Western countries on the issue of Tibet or Taiwan simply because they believe that these countries not only do not have the moral high ground to do so, but also have a lack of understanding of the issues on which that they are criticizing China.

Most Chinese cannot accept this "holier-than-thou" attitude from the westerners because to them, it reeks of hypocrisy, arrogance and ignorance, not because they want to repeat the atrocities the western countries committed in the last a few hundred years.

You should not extrapolate China's intentions based on the past history of your country. Just because America had slavery when it could, it doesn't mean China would want to have slavery; just because America used a bunch of lies to start wars-for-oil in defiance of the entire international community, it doesn't mean China would do the same. You are an American, please don't make presumptions for the Chinese.

 

LOL "us americans"? Last time i checked I didn't vote for the Spanish-American war, nor did anybody who is currently alive. I am glad that the Phillipines, Cuba ,etc are now independent countries though.

Anyway tell me what "us americans" are guilty of. Some europeans killed off native americans 400 years ago and "us americans" are guilty? Oh for christ's sake - that's idiotic. I'm talking about the current invasion, occupation, and eradication of tibet. Not the ones that occurred 300 years ago. I mean if w are going to dig up a laundry list of sins, I'm sure there are many thousand year old massacres and atrocities that I can ascribe to "you chinese".

your face, because you are losing it!

it is a basic underlying assumption of any post by Chinese mouthpiece who mentions American Indians, treaties with Mexico, or anything remotely related to manifest destiny. Read the thread my brother.

"you did it 200 years ago, now it's our turn!"

You've had your turns. And even if it was your turn - that doesn't mean you should do it. Just because one country did something bad 200 years ago does not mean China has Carte Blanche to pillage and plunder and act destructively. Do you get it? It's not hard, do you get it? I bet you don't.

keep up man.

 

CORRECTED.

We were humans. you are BORG.

 

great post tinman I bet these guys drive around in cubes.

 

the collective Borg of Asia is strange. Did you notice that the nation of South Korea apologized for that lunatic at Virginia Tech's shootings?
South Korea had NOTHING to do with it. it was just one idiot. but the BORG mentality prevails.

We look at Yao as representing Yao. They look at Yao as representing China.
What if SamFisher was a Mexican? would they say "YOU MEXICANS??"

why is the US so dominate in culture, cause we promote individuality. That's why all the original ideas come from here. cause we aren't tied to the Collective. We have FREE MINDS. Tupac would never exist in China. Tupac talks about HIS PERSPECTIVE and HIS EXPERIENCES. if Tupac were Tibetan, he'd talk about how the Police is beating up on his people.

This is why the keep making more and more Star Treks.. cause some people still don't get it.

 

Looking through this thread it's like there's two entirely different conversations going on at the same time....directed towards one another.

 

Well, you have to admit tinman has an interesting take right above your post.^^^


(Deckard is a huge Star Trek fan!)



I can be such a sensitive guy.




This dude is secretly from the Borg Collective. I rescued the chick. How they put real boobs on an android is a mystery to me!




D&D. Impeach Bush, the Dog, the Pastry Chef, and the Borg Collective!

 

Your argument makes absolutely no sense. Basically, you are just saying "well, the bad things that my country did happened such a long time ago, and since the offspring of the victims cannot practically do anything to punish the bad people, my country is free of sins and can criticize anyone that we are not approve of". Well, I'm not saying the Chinese-Tibetan history is anything like the European-American-Native American history, but using your logic, maybe China should just wait for a few more hundred years and everyone will be happily accept the reality.

Again, your statement reeks of ignorance and hypocrisy. The "eradication of tibet"? Where did you come up with these terms? The "eradication of native Americans" makes sense, because the population and culture of native Americans are almost totally destroyed by the European Americans. On the other hand, the population, life expectancy, literacy and living standard of Tibetans have greatly increased since its integration into PRC. According to this article. more than 90 percent of Tibet's government revenue come from outside the region, from 1954 to 1994, the central government of China invested $4.2 billion in China, and in 1996 alone, the Chinese government invested $600 million in Tibet, considering that the total aid from America to Africa in 1996 was $800 billion, and if you compare the population of African against Tibet, how could you possibly draw the conclusion that China is eradicating Tibet?

I'm not saying the Tibetan culture isn't changing and the policies of the central government have nothing to do with it. But so what? The traditional Chinese culture is changing and diminishing everywhere due to western influences, do you have hear constant cries of culture genocide from the Chinese? Culture is not a frozen artifact, it changes with time.

If you have indeed been to Tibet and you still accuse China of committing culture genocide in Tibet, then you are nothing but a liar. Every year, China spends millions of dollars restoring lama temples and palaces all over Tibet, and there are lamas and pilgrims everywhere in Tibet. I don't deny that Tibetans are forbidden to worship Dalai Lama, but other than that they are free to practice their religion.


Oh, if I were you, I wouldn't play the number of massacred to put China into an evil role. China has lost far more people from invasions by its neighbors than it has caused of its neighbors.

This is an internet forum, I cannot possibly gain or lose anything from arguing on it. I was hoping that I'd be able to set the record straight and maybe show some people other sides of the story. But it seems that pride to you is worth a lot more than knowledge and truth. Please feel free to declare yourself the victor of this "debate" -- if it means so much to you. I'm pretty comfortable with knowing that I have wasted my time.

Your assumptions fail you again and again and you don't even see it. You know nothing about the people you are arguing with and you assume you know how they think. You don't seem to have a problem insulting the Chinese's opinion on historical issues of America, yet you insist the Chinese to agree with you on the historical issues of China. This is not communication and you cannot expect to achieve anything positive with the way you act.

Again, all my words just fell on your deaf ears. There is no point of arguing any further.

Again, the expression of your ignorance only serves to lower my opinion of you. I understand that you probably don't give a **** about what I think of you, well, in that case, the feeling is mutual.

 

It's funny how you just so freely resort to insulting the Chinese in a debate while having absolutely nothing to contribute. Surely you don't feel that you can somehow convince the Chinese by insulting them?

Wow, I hope this is just a poorly attempted humor.

 

What is this "you Americans" and "the Chinese"? Do you or he speak for everyone? And how can you convince over a billion people of any one thing? What about the Chinese Americans? What about all of us?

"We must become something we have never been and for which our education and experience and environment have ill-prepared us. We must become bigger than we have been: more courageous, greater in spirit, larger in outlook. We must become members of a new race, overcoming petty prejudice, owing our ultimate allegiance not to nations but to our fellow men within the human community."
-Selassie

 

This isn't an american vs. china thing, it's about the world being shocked and saddened by what china is doing in tibet.

it's not just americans new player, it's anyone who is a humanist.

so say you find it acceptable to beat up some monks is to say you aren't a humanist. look, we can't go back and change the past, but we can speak out and hope to change the present and future.

and right now, presently, china's doing some awful things.

 

And in some people's opinion....so is the United States. But this is a thread about what's going on in Tibet, not about the Nina, the Pinta and the Santa Maria.

 

Cause i have been there and seen it - Have you? It is not an old fashioned eradication in terms of extermination - even China ceased doing that back in the 70's, but the deliberate resettlement and overwhemling is pretty clearly designd.

It's very interesting that Chinese are full of opinions on Tibet yet the vast majority have never been and have never spoken to a single tibetan.

 

likewise - the US is doing some and has done some pretty horrible things too.

If China withdraws from Tibet, will the US-Americans withdraw from North America?

Seriously though, I dunno if it's just some general animosity towards Chinese people but a lot of people seemed to get a lot more riled up when China does something "bad" as opposed Turkey, Pakistan, Iran, Congo, etc. And seem surprised when Chinese people exhibit some nationalist pride. There was a spy plane that was intercepted off the Chinese coast several years ago. And there was that unprovoked bombing of the Chinese embassy too. If the roles in those events were reversed, I can only imagine the righteous outrage over here in the US.

Maybe it cuz Westerners still remember Tian An Men Square and all that stuff mixed in with anti-Communist sentiment. Or maybe China is just held to a higher standard. I suppose they probably should be since they are hosting the Olympics and are a major international trading power.

 

North America? probably not - of course the US has mostly withdrawn and granted self government from many other territorial possessions this century, the Phillipines, Cuba, Panama Canal, or occupied areas like West Germany, Japan, South korea, etc and allowed them to have full autonomy. I'm trying to think of one instance ever of China doing the same thing (...having ceded authority after acquiring it...). I can't think of any.

Anyway, the North America thing is a red herring - there is nobody to give it back to, anymore than there is a large distinct Manchu population to give Manchuria back to. That's a separate issue.

Finally, the whole assumption that China has to "give tibet back or nothing" is another red herring. Ideally Tibet would be an independent nation like it has historically been (oohh....burn!!!!) - but failing that, the Chinese could stop short of giving Tibetans independence. Hell most Tibetans would be flabbergasted to enjoy the rights native american tribes have today in the US. Instead China excercised veto power over their entire civilization, picks their religious leaders, shoots them if they try to escape, harasses monks, and most egregiously - imports trainloads of Chinese to take over their land and make them minorities in their own land. If China could - you know, NOT DO a bunch of these things it would be a better scenario.

 

I wasn't serious about the giving North America back part.

A free Manchuria? HELL YES!! I'm actually Manchurian descent myself. I wanna construct a huge casino there. Seriously though, the Manchu thing would be dicey. We were the ones who conquered the Han and annexed China. I don't think the Japanese-Manchukuo would be considered legit by anyone. China needs a strong Qing descendant to become Emperor again. i think i've alienated both sides here.

 

once again the BORG doesn't understand that all beings are free of thought and aren't assimilated in your mentality.

when did I insult the Chinese? I think you are insulting the Chinese.
You call yourself whatever you want, Chinese, Mexican, whatever. I think you are BORG.

the main topic is about Tibetan monks being beaten down. that's an injustice. but your mentality is programmed to see everything as: China right China right China right Kirk is the demon The Enterprise must be destroyed

obviously you can't see that as injustice as a human being cause you are BORG

 

NewYorker,
there's no sense arguing with BORG, they aren't human. Must assimilate clutchfans..
china =right always
china=right always
everything else america wrong
Project Genesis
James T Kirk
Khan
Data, Picard
china china china china china
CHINA > HUMANS
CHINA > HUMANS

 

no, the reference to you was just for the conspiracy theorist part.

Ill explain further real quick, as I generally like to read your stuff.

when I first noticed your posts it was in connection to conspiracy theories (dont remember which right at the moment) and so its what came to mind in that instant.



as has been explained since, it jsut isnt logical AT ALL if you knwo anything about global balance and the way things work together worldwide to think that ANY of the major countries are going to start a war with any other.

Especially so when both countries are heavily involved in worldwide banking and commerce. The disruptions to the stock markets from all over would be catastrophic. and none of the shadow rulers want that.