[Sunday Times]Tibetan monks beaten as police halt dissent

this seems to be a key difference b/t many of the american and chinese posters on here. we dont take criticism of our government as a personal attack or an attack on americans (or at least most of us dont).

the government is not the people and they rarely act in our own interests, no matter which country you hail from.

 

US Clutchfans,
please don't let some posters here fool you in thinking that all Chinese Clutchfans act like they are robots controlled by China.
Freemanian gave me his thoughts on things and proved that he was not a Borg, but he was Star Fleet material. He didn't even hate Kenny Smith.

Free yourself from the Borg. Think for yourselves. Ask yourself about injustice for people. Ask yourself what Kirk, or Picard or Buck Rodgers would do.

 

member when picard became a borg ? then he killed sisko's wife. You have to be careful when you are a borg becuase you can hurt people without realizing it.

 

the hell are you talking about man. i was in china til i was 14, then from 14 to 27, i'm in US. i'm educated here. nobody in china controls me ok.

 

NOW, yes. But the American people were overwhelmingly 'on-board' with the Iraqi invasion at first, until we saw that it turned bad and wasn't going the way we wanted it to. Then, and only then, did the majority turn against the war, especially when we saw the rationale for war collapse over time.

I know what you're going to say: bad intel and a sales job by the Bush administration. It doesn't really matter in this context, because my argument is strictly limited to this false notion that the American people are opposed to the war based on some moral high ground.

The majority of Americans wanted war, they wanted revenge, basically to 'lash out' and make someone pay (really, almost any Arab/Muslim-majority state would've done just fine at that point; Afghanistan was obvious and Iraq just happened to be unlucky). Any leader in power at that time would've waged war at least on Afghanistan, may be even beyond that; the public demanded it.

 

dude, you need to get that chip taken out.

 

I found abcdefghli's constant declarations about the US wanting to invade China EXTREMELY laughable, until I realized no one else has responded to that.

are we collectively ignoring that on purpose, or is just so laughable that it isnt worth responding to?

It is obvious abcdefghl doesnt know jack about how things *really* work over here, or is he the chinese version of jo mama?

no offense intended jomama, you just seem well versed in conspiracy theories, and was first name that came to mind

Get this straight....

your average everyday American doesnt care one bit about what happens to China. They CERTAINLY woudl never support a act of war against China...unless of course yall attack first.

and dont even think of bringing up Iraq on this point.....we were fooled(lied to) to get behind it......It isnt likely to happen again anytime soon.

at least till this generation gets replaced by a new generation that doesnt learn the lesson of the past like our current leaders did with Vietnam

 

The chinese people aren't even allowed to criticize their gov't or be against the invasion of Tibet.

And i don't think you could say that invading Iraq was lashing out from 9/11. That's not fair nor true.

 

They still cared back then too. They were wrong for the most part back then, but they did care. I wasn't trying to say American's were always right, just countering abcdef's claim that American's didn't care.

 

tiger, you know I respect you, man, but that's just bull patties. (see! I didn't say bull ****! ) The majority of Americans wanted revenge against those responsible, and to eliminate those who supported doing something similar to us in the future. They were sold a bill of goods. Just because people like me and Batman, and some others here (and plenty elsewhere) thought it was a bill of goods at the time doesn't mean the majority of Americans should have "gotten it."

I don't resent those who supported the war then, because they were lied to by the Administration, had the facts massaged by the Administration, were fed a steady dose of distortions and BS by the Administration... why should I resent them because they believed it? Yes, it took longer than I expected for the majority to figure this out, but they sure as hell have. Look at the polls. They'll tell you that the American people are ahead of Congress on the war and aren't buying the Administration's BS any longer.

Haven't seen any get beaten up and jailed for painting their houses or places of worship recently, either.



D&D. Impeach Bush.

 

so you limited your argument to the straw man part?

I opposed the war not out of morals but because it was a hellaciously bad idea considering iraq was 1. not a threat relatively speaking, and 2. the US was already busy in Afghanistan and dealing with actual terrorism without creating more headaches, and 3, the US (particularly the bush administration) did not have the ability or capacity to maintain or reconstruct a postwar Iraq (see James Fallows' 2002 articles "Iraq: the 51st state?" in the Atlantic monthly for an eerie foreshadowing ). I think these reasons or a combination thereof were why a lot of people were against the war - from the beginning) as opposed to any "morality" play.

 

I am sorry, but that majority of Americans supported it, and the polls reflected it. I am not saying every single American did, but the majority did. Sure, they were misinformed and -- some would suggest -- misled. But the political climate at the time made it easy for our leadership to 'rally' the public behind the war in Iraq, and people were at least willing to entertain the idea of an invasion of a distant country that did not attack us and had zero to do with 9/11 attacks; there is little or no evidence of a 'moral opposition' to the war.

Of course not, but frankly I am completely disinterested in this specific thread, which seems much more about 'provoking' a reaction from the Chinese posters here than anything else. All IMHO, of course...

 

I thought we were just trying to keep the lid on our surprise. How can we keep a tactical surprise on our blatant designs on attacking China if we pay attention to acknowledge his mention of the event.

Don't be surprised of U.S. govt. agents seize your bowling ball, and bowling shoes, soon. you've shown your disloyalty, and drastic steps will of course be taken by our authoritarian govt.

Spoiler

Actually I think we all just missed the elephant in the room, and it was an hilarious elephant at that.

I think abcdef may deserve some kind of honor's in the upcoming post of the year awards. It really is pretty great. I'm ashamed to say I couldn't see the forest for the trees in those posts.

I guess there was so much craziness involved, that my mind only registered some of the least crazy subjects, because that was all my feeble mental capacity could handle at the moment.

Thanks for bringing my attention where it should have been all along.

 

i would argue that the american people were lied and fear-mongered into iraq by the bush/cheney administration. it was deception. if the american people had been told the truth there is no way the country would have gone along with bush's war of choice.

mushroom clouds, anyone?

 

Ah, no, but that's what I presumed we were talking about, since you and others are condemning the beatings of the monks based on -- I presume -- a normative argument that it's "wrong" or "savage" or a reflection of how repressive the CCP is. Or are you opposed to it on 'practical' grounds?

Same here. And I am not arguing that anyone opposed the war based on 'morals', I am saying the opposition to the war (after the fact, and given the benefit of hindsight) doesn't seem to be a 'moral opposition' given the initial support for it.

How am I arguing otherwise? Or are you just arguing for the sake of argument?

 

I don't excuse Americans for trusting Bush and supporting going to war.

I protested the war because I knew it had nothing to do with the war on terror and that the WMD things was a joke. I knew Saddam was contained. And just the way you don't execute a guy in jail, you leave Iraq to be Iraq.

I supported the war in Afganistan, and was surprised by the fact so many people supported Iraq though. But at the end of the day, the evidence was there, and Americans didn't do enough thinking.

Going to war should be a very serious thing and should be considered carefully. Not just on the impact on us, but on the entire world. And I feel like Americans trusted Bush. That was the mistake.

In reality, Bush has taught us one thing - never trust the president. Never. We have to make our own decision, look at the facts without passion, and consider all sides. We need to weigh the cons and pros - on our own. And really consider it.

But no one is taught to think that way. And it's not just here in America, it's everywhere. It's sad. If there was one thing I wish we could add to our curriculum of education, it would be a class on "how to think for yourself". and really the answer would be, "question everything until you drive people nuts".

 

no offense taken, i guess - just puzzled by your comparison.

ill never claim to be a know-it-all, but what exactly do i not know jack about regarding how things "really" work? example please.

i missed the part about him saying we wanted to invade china though. i really dont think any chinese need to worry about us invading them right now. you guys own us now.

 

Maybe you guys need to get the "OMGZ THE REDS ARE EVIL KILL THEM" chip taken out of your brains, which apparently is suppressing even the most basic principles of logic causing you to make stuff up and make statements in total hypocrisy.

 

The cincinnati reds are evil! curse those reds!

 

Uh, yeah there's a bit of a difference between filming a Nike commercial and showing it worldwide (to provide markets for chinese made products, ultimately, lol) and the invasion, occupation and colonization of Tibet.