[Sunday Times]Tibetan monks beaten as police halt dissent

i heard they laughed when spock died

 

dude,
they don't know that an INDIVIDUAL (anyone who can think freely) like Kirk would risk his entire crew to save his friend SPOCK. regardless that SPOCK was a Vulcan, regardless of his government (Star Fleet/USA) and regardless of pissing neutral zone treaty with the Klingons (China). All to save his friend Spock (Tibet).

 

You seem to have a very selective view of your history. Forgotten the Espionage and Sedition Acts of 1917, which are STILL ON THE BOOKS? What about the Smith Act, which basically outlawed the Communist Party? Oh, what about this USA PATRIOT Act?

The problem isn't that outsiders can't comment. The problem is that you are being extraordinarily hypocritical for criticizing us while doing the same crap yourselves. There isn't even a debate whether the US Government represents all of its citizens, because it does, since there are elections, while you might debate whether the Chinese government represents all of its citizens. I would argue that it does, but that's a different issue...

 

I'm not saying it's wrong to condemn. Heck have your opinion all day long. That's whats great about this board. Just saying how I also understand the growing Chinese nationalism and anti-Western resentment. There is some history there.

As far as this particular issue goes? I really can't say that I have an opinion. Don't know enuff. Both sides have made some pretty convincing points. Definitely some of the more educated sounding points I have heard (both ways).

I do think Bob Costas making some out-of the way commentary on how bad China is during the 2004 (or 2000?) Olympics was pretty lame. Even the most ardent China-haters have to admit that there are a lot worse situations in the world. Him singling China out (as others have also done) - seems very off. Kind of weird how a country like Cuba is sort of off-limits while China is fair game.

 

Wow, it seems you Americans are destroying the people of Iraq and not only do the Americans not care, they seem to want the Army to continue doing it. Hypocrisy much? Not to mention that your statement is totally false anyway.

 

Hm.... Just like Al-Qaeda proclaimed that they only hate the American government and are fine with its people? If you buy that, I've got this bridge in NYC I'd like to sell you....

You're not going to pull this BS you try to do in third rate countries of making a distinction between hating a government and its people. That crap doesn't work on us. If you hate on our government, you're hating on us.

 

even JFK said, "ask what the country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country". something like that. nuff said. mass killing is WRONG anywhere. but get the facts right. there is no organized mass killing in tibet. sure, there are crack downs in tibet. everyone knows that, but to say that it's mass killing is complete BS. even dalai said recently in news, that he is chinese, that taiwan is part of china.

 

PURE PWNAGE right there. I agree with a lot of what's said there, however, I have to disagree that Chinese government represents all of its citizens (there's plenty of issues going on, country side getting neglected during modernization, how's Shanghai gonna be treated after Cheng Liangyu got arrested, the corruptions in the uper ranks of the government in general).

I also agree that USA (especially lately) isn't clean (we outsource or human rights violations) but they are still better than the Chinese government (definitely more reserved).

I realized that all crows are black. Tupac had the right idea about government and public policies regardless of where you are.



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I see no changes. Wake up in the morning and I ask myself,
"Is life worth living? Should I blast myself?"
I'm tired of bein' poor and even worse I'm black.
My stomach hurts, so I'm lookin' for a purse to snatch.
Cops give a damn about a negro? Pull the trigger, kill a *****, he's a hero.
Give the crack to the kids who the hell cares? One less hungry mouth on the welfare.
First ship 'em dope & let 'em deal the brothers.
Give 'em guns, step back, and watch 'em kill each other.
"It's time to fight back", that's what Huey said.
2 shots in the dark now Huey's dead.
I got love for my brother, but we can never go nowhere
unless we share with each other. We gotta start makin' changes.
Learn to see me as a brother 'stead of 2 distant strangers.
And that's how it's supposed to be.
How can the Devil take a brother if he's close to me?
I'd love to go back to when we played as kids,
but things change, and that's the way it is.

[Bridge w/ changing ad libs]

(Come on, come on) That's just the way it is. Things'll never be the same.
That's just the way it is. aww yeah...
[Repeat]

I see no changes. All I see is racist faces.
Misplaced hate makes disgrace for races we under.
I wonder what it takes to make this one better place...
let's erase the wasted.
Take the evil out the people, they'll be acting right.
'Cause mo' black than white is smokin' crack tonight.
And only time we chill is when we kill each other.
It takes skill to be real, time to heal each other.
And although it seems heaven sent,
we ain't ready to see a black President, uhh.
It ain't a secret don't conceal the fact...
the penitentiary's packed, and it's filled with blacks.
But some things will never change.
Try to show another way, but they stayin' in the dope game.
Now tell me what's a mother to do?
Bein' real don't appeal to the brother in you.
You gotta operate the easy way.
"I made a G today" But you made it in a sleazy way.
Sellin' crack to the kids. "I gotta get paid,"
Well hey, well that's the way it is.

[Bridge]
[Talking:]

We gotta make a change...
It's time for us as a people to start makin' some changes.
Let's change the way we eat, let's change the way we live
and let's change the way we treat each other.
You see the old way wasn't working so it's on us to do
what we gotta do, to survive.

And still I see no changes. Can't a brother get a little peace?
There's war on the streets & the war in the Middle East.
Instead of war on poverty,
they got a war on drugs so the police can bother me.
And I ain't never did a crime I ain't have to do.
But now I'm back with the facts givin' 'em back to you.
Don't let 'em jack you up, back you up, crack you up and pimp smack you up.
You gotta learn to hold ya own.
They get jealous when they see ya with ya mobile phone.
But tell the cops they can't touch this.
I don't trust this, when they try to rush I bust this.
That's the sound of my tune. You say it ain't cool, but mama didn't raise no fool.
And as long as I stay black, I gotta stay strapped & I never get to lay back.
'Cause I always got to worry 'bout the pay backs.
Some buck that I roughed up way back... comin' back after all these years.
Rat-a-tat-tat-tat-tat. That's the way it is. uhh

 

Chinese folk-

Your government sucks, but so does ours. We are not our governments, but we are responsible for taking care of the world and everybody/thing in it. The like-minded between us need to get together and refuse to allow violence to be done in our names.

 

So if you hate Nazi ideals, you hate the German people?

You are completely wrong. I can like Yao as a person but despise what Chinese government is doing to Tibet. In fact I do.

The country of China does not equal the Chinese people. Please try to understand this.

So you admit that it is crap. Why do you hate yourself?

It is obvious that the Chinese are just hyperdefensive about the actions of their government. It is shown time and time again.

“Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.”
~ Mark Twain

 

well, of course. i agree there. it's just that repeated unfair criticism gets old really fast. and it gets on people's nerves. even if some of the things said are true, it's just going to make people feel the aggression. it ain't like we are dumb. we know what to fix. it takes time. instead, some folks over there keep on mouthing off crap that nobody wants to hear. anyway, peace! \/

 

Dude, you're messing up the original Star Trek allegory. Starfleet (US) vs. Klingons (USSR) and Romulans (China).

I guess Vulcans would be Taiwanese.

That would be more credible if the people of China voted for their CCP representatives and leaders. It almost sounds something Rush Limbaugh would say on TV if the situation was reversed.

Americans believe that the CCP holds undue influence over the Chinese people, so don't take it as a personal slight if American rail at the government. Would it be that far off for the Chinese government to pay attention to the complaints of 10k Americans more or equal to the complaints of 10k Chinese citizens? How much control do the Chinese people have in their government?

I guess the argument is getting ironic in the age where a Vice President wants to push the magical powers of the "unitary executive".

 

People protest in the US all the time, and the VAST majority of the time they don't get what they want. Has the Bush administration listened to any anti-war protests? Didn't think so. In fact he responded to the anti-war sentiment by sending in more troops. That's some government responsiveness for you, huh?

Our government isn't perfect; pollution is out of control, many officials are corrupt, and the gap between rich and poor are widening. But it's our government, and it's far better than the alternative; an American/Japanese dominated puppet state. If any foreign power attacks us the people will rise up to defend the nation and our government. You think you can pull what you did in Iraq and somehow get the Iraqi people to stand down while you march in and take them over, but you failed there and you will fail even worse with us.

As I said, AQ claims to only hate the American government. Does anyone buy this? Hell no. The Americans claimed to be trying to help the Iraqi citizens. Well, hasn't worked out so well for them; death toll estimates ranging from 200k to 1 million+.

 

You just got owned by Godwin's Law. Good job.

Separating the government from its people can almost always be interpreted as "We're going to come invade, so play nice and we won't kill you, and if you become a traitor and help us, you'll be richly rewarded." Hardly a nice message to send.

You're also resorting to picking single words out of context of what I wrote. If I replaced "crap" with "stuff" the meaning wouldn't change one bit.

 

No American people do care. Only 24% support the President, and roughly the same number support the war in Iraq. They voted in a new congress in hopes that they could do something to change the war in Iraq. The Americans care, and have made changes in an effort to stop the war.

 

No I have not forgotten those things, nor the alien and sedition act of 1798 - but if you're seriously trying to tell me that 1st amendment protections in the US are not as strong as in mainland china, pardon me while I laugh my ass off for the next 3-7 millenia.

I'm not being hypocritical at all. There is no contemporary analog to the Chinese invasion, occupation, and colonization of Tibet. You can whine and moan about the Lousiana purchase all you want, but you can't restore Louisiana to its long dead native inhabitants anymore than you could restore Xian to Banpo man. Certainly, there is no ongoing colonization of that area. It's done, it's over - just like past chinese colonizations of the periphery of china are over and done with. The only close contemporary analog is iraq, but even with all of the US misdeeds in Iraq - there is no plan to start resettling americans there and call it the 51st state.

Anyway, even a small gesture from the chinese would be welcome. At least the indians now have their own reservations, autonomy, and can run gambling halls. That doesn't sound like a lot, but compared to the modern day invasion and occupation of Tibet - they'd settle for one of the three.

 

what does that have to do with my Star Trek Analogy?
I guess you didn't read it cause you think everything is about the US vs China.
which proves my point again, that you are programmed by the collective like the Borg and not as an individual.

There was no country on planet Genesis, it was a barren planet. But Jim and crew went there to help their friend...Spock.

 

this thread is about tibet. if you want to start a thread on american policies go for it...or better yet, go read one of the myriad of threads regarding the current state of our government. you will see that in america we can criticize our government - the average individual american doesnt tie themselves to the goverment and doesnt take criticism of our government as a personal attack on ourselves. we dont all have to march lock-step with everything they do like many posters here apparently do.

this statement shows how little you know about american politics. most americans would argue with good cause that our government does NOT represent us. most americans want out of iraq, but our government (republicans AND democrats) are hell-bent on continuing it to no end. they sure arent acting in a manner that the majority of its citizens want...but that doesnt really have anything to do with tibet, does it?

 

you seem totally ignorant of the average american mindset. the vast majority of us are against our governments war in iraq and want our government to bring our troops home.

again, in america we dont have to march-lock step with everything our government does. not all americans have to agree with everything the government does all the time.

and if you want to start a thread about iraq go for it. or feel free to post in any of the dozens of iraq thread in here.

 

Wait, isn't that What China did to Tibet?

FYI - Al Qaeda doesn't just hate our gov't, it hates America all the way through our rotten apple core. That's why it targets citizens as well.

There are many things I do not like about our gov't.....many many things. I protested against invading Iraq. I thought it was the stupidest idea ever conceived.

But ya know what, I still see what China is doing in Tibet as not only worse, it's barbaric. Beating up Monks! That's what they do in Cambodia. Ever heard of the killing fields?

Trust me, I'm all for China developing and becoming advanced...I can't wait. I hope to see it in my lifetime. I'm rooting for both China and India. Those two countries deserve to be respect - the two most acient civilizations in mankind.

But why is the Chinese gov't doing this? So much repression. The Tibetans deserve better. The Chinese people deserve better.