[Sunday Times]Tibetan monks beaten as police halt dissent

There is almost no discussion of what it is now, Chinese posters who have never been to Tibet and never spoken to a Tibetan like to cite all the money the PRC is pouring into Tibet - this money largely goes to build up infrastructure to support an imported Han Chinese population, infrastructure that the Tibetans (at least the ones i have talked to) would rather not have given the heavy toll it exacts on them.

 

Those of you who are so critical of the Chinese government need to have a frame of reference. The current Chinese government since Deng is probably one of the best if not the best government China had in its history (more than 5000 years). Does it have problems? Absolutely (corrupt officials, growing inequity between the rich and poor, does not allow political options other than CCP etc...). However, Chinese people are living better under the current government than any time in history, people in China today are concerned about how to buy homes and cars instead of thinking how will they feed their family next month. China is now the third largest economical power in the world behind only US and Japan and is still growing at 10% plus a year.

There is an old saying in the US when it comes to choosing the president, "are you better off than four years ago"? In China this is absolutely the case for about the last 30 years running.

When you put the situation in this frame of reference, you will see why Chinese from all over the world (even those who grew up in US) are much less critical of the Chinese government than non Chinese. They see progress every day and are willing to wait for things to take their course.

Lastly, I believe most of the Chinese posters on this BBS have a better understanding of the United States (in many cases having lived, studied and worked in the US) than the US posters' understanding of China.

 

Could you be a bit more specific on which infrastructures were built up to support an imported Han Chinese population, and why such infrastructures would not benefit the local Tibetan population and what sort of toll it exacts on the local Tibetan population?

 

A good point. But that point can be made both ways. A lot of US-Americans have never spoken to Tibetans either. I think I could safely assume that the vast majority of "anti-China" posters here have never been to China either. A lot of them have probably never spoken to a Chinese person (outside of ordering food).

Now I'm not putting you personally in the same boat. From your posts in past, I gather that you have been to China recently.

 

I'm sure the Tibetans are very happy for them.

 

1. railroad - disproportionate benefit is for the Chinese who are most of the patrons thereof. The railroad is used overwhelmingly by Chinese, not by Tibetans - who 1. can't afford it, and 2. have little use for it

2. chinese owned, run & patronized hotels, KTV joints/brothels. which appears to be the majoity of development. I fail to see how thiese benefit most tibetans. I suppose you can ascribe a "rising tide lifts all boats" philosophy, a la GWB, but at the cost of turning the Tibetans into a minority at their own province I don't believe most would make the trade off. No matter how many economic incentives are implemented in Tibet, as with many things in China - being successful has as much to do with who you know, which in a society where the CCP/Hans hold all the cards - shuts most Tibetans out.

There are more but i don't feel like getting into it right now.

If you went to Lhasa 5 years ago and went there now you wouldn't recognize it. Traditional tibetan homes have been bulldozed for ugly parks, hotels, stores, etc etc etc. Now I know some Tibetans clean toilets in the big new department stores there but the benefits seem to overwhelmingly accrue to the Chinese.

It's similar to the gentriification of american inner cities in some respcts. The principal beneficiaries are not the residents thereof.

 

^^

Not to mention housing subsidies for Han Chinese to move to Tibet and tax benefits/subsidies for Chinese owned businesses in Tibet.

 

can't the same statement made, "i'm sure the iraqis are very happy for them."?

 

Talk to me when tens of thousands protest in China.

 

I am not here to say what Han Chinese did is all good, but they did improve the standard of living for the average Tibetans sinificantly by providing jobs, education and health services to them. Tibetan children could go to college in China with signicantly lower test scores than Han Chinese (affirmative action).

 

You could, but it would be sort of a random thing to say. I was responding to a poster who was basically saying, "Sure, China has problems, but you have to understand that we're doing well economically." I was pointing out that Tibetans are unlikely to feel more free just because people in China are buying more nice things. If someone tries to downplay what's happening in Iraq by talking about the strength of the US economy, then you can bring out that statement.

 

That's a more valid argument. I think this may be where some of the disagreement arises. I think, as I bet most Americans do, that people should be allowed to decide for themselves whether they think their government is serving them well. Whether or not the government is actually doing a good job, the people should be free to speak their opinion and have an impact on the way that they are governed. I don't think that governments should be trusted to assess their own performance.

 

ditto. a lot han chinese are pissed that minorities get higher score. i'm mixed of multiple ethinic groups, and one of my cousins, listed herself as minority on her ID card. and she gets 10 bonus points for college entrance test scores. if a han and a minority have the same score, the minority get the spot, no question asked. and minorities get to have more than 1 child which urban chinese are not allowed. ever since the 1 child policy started, minority population in china have actually increased at a faster pace than han chinese.

 

talk to me when those protests actually works. otherwise, it's just for show.

 

According to some posters here, China building infrastructures and spend money to develop the Tibet is bad because it destroy the Tibetan way of life. I guess Tibetans should always live the way they have for the last 1000 years by herding sheep and barely have enough to eat.

I am guessing according to them what many radical Muslims are saying is true: that the US way of life is evil and they are a threat to the Muslim way of life.

I thought we should encourage people move forward and enter the modern society way of living, or is that only true for some group of people but not others?

 

I think the Tibetans should make these choices for themselves.

 

so you are saying, if a group of people decided to live a primitive life style and keep on suffering while the rest of the world is advancing, that's ok? isn't it our responsiblity to bring them up to speed so they get to experience modern life style as well?

 

No, we should only do that when they start flying planes into our buildings, but otherwise we should just let they make a living by selling opium or whatever.

Is there any reason why not too much conflicts happen in western europe, US or Japan but happens all the time in Africa, South America and other poor regions?

 

I think they should get to choose their own values and priorities. If the culture in Tibet is such that people wish to live a simple life, then I don't think other countries should have the right to overrule those wishes. Likewise, if they wish to have their own government, that should be their choice.

There have been countless times throughout history that people have attempted to impose their own values and culture in other countries. I would think that people in China would be acutely aware of how dangerous that can be.

 

i guess people have different opinions, can't be changed. another note, i think a lot chinese are not too worried about imposing culture to them. it's been done multiple times to chinese, but everytime, the other culture pretty much disappeared or merged into chinese culture.