[Sunday Times]Tibetan monks beaten as police halt dissent

No I haven't, but I know plenty of people who have.

Well, you call what China is doing in Tibet "extermination", I call what you think "extremely biased opinion".

It's even more interesting that the Americans are full of opinions on mainland China and Tibet, yet vast majority of them have never been to either part of China. Think about it.

 

I was gonna call you a nerdy moron, but I've decided not to since I don't think the nerdy morons haven't done anything bad enough to me to deserve the insult being put in the same category as you.

The main topic was about news report on Tibetan monks being beaten down, but it has been the beaten-to-death free-Tibet China bashing feast for the most of the "discussion".

I can see injustice everywhere, but I don't see how one can solve the injustice by acting like a moronic Jar Jar Binks.

 

I don't care what the vast majority think, I am telling you what I think, and I have been to both.

 

so tell me, what did you see in tibet?

 

Fixed.

Actually, a more commonly used term would be "ignorant people" ...

Beating peaceful protesters is wrong. So is bashing China over the China-Tibet issue.

 

First of all, you are the one who brought up "what the vast majority think", not me.

I don't see how you can possibly draw the conclusion of China is exterminating Tibetans. The only "proof" you have is your own opinion. You've chosen to ignore the most obvious things such as the huge improvement in the population, life expectancy, health and standard of living of the Tibetan people, and still accuse the Chinese government for committing genocide in Tibet. If this is not biased opinion, I don't know what is.

 

I went to Watts yesterday. It was very crappy and there were many poor black people, many of which were very unhappy with their lives. Therefore the white Americans are oppressing the blacks and something needs to be done about it, like the overthrowing of the government.

Don't you realize how ridiculous that line of reasoning sounds? It's exactly the same as what you're trying to pull.

 

Watts is more hispanic than black now (60% to 36%) so I doubt you've been recently - or ever.

Next time you use wikipedia to pretend you have been to a place - make sure you read all about it, mmkay?

 

Lawl, I just went to USC yesterday, so obviously I had to pass through Watts. Nice try.

 

USC? Go gamecocks!

 

Whatever silly semantics people cite aren't particularly relevant. You are judging Tibet solely based on development. And while development is pretty cool, that doesn't answer any of the arguments posed by others. I mean Russia "developed" much of Eastern Europe through a process of Russian immigration and slow control over Eastern Europe through the development of Russian operated businesses. You still see that in Eastern provinces of Russia today.

China has more or less done the same thing. Much of the economic growth in Tibet today isn't driven by native Tibetans. It's driven by Chinese immigrants and generous subsidies to move to Tibet and start businesses. Now that's good for development but it's not particularly great for the lifestyle of locals or their traditional way of life. (granted I suppose I can't speak for locals)

Now I will admit that Americans tend to mythologize and romanticize what Tibet was before the Chinese takeover as some sort of Himalayan paradise where everyone is somehow attuned to a higher calling. There were tons of problems there but that doesn't justify China's unilateral takeover and subsequent economic takeover that's taking place.

Finally, none of this answers what most Tibetans have demanded. I don't know anyone who really advocates independence anymore. Most people advocate some semblance of local autonomy for Tibet province as opposed to the centralized nature of government there (even more top-down than a lot of other Chinese provinces) There is almost zero conception of local government in Tibet and everything is directly mandated by the CCP in Beijing.

 

With all due respect, aside from the fact that you were not in Watts, we did do something about racism in this country. The Democratic Party committed political suicide in the South in the 1960's trying to do something about discrimination. With the help of some progressive Republicans (where are they now??), they pushed through the Voting Rights Act and a host of programs, some good and some not, that have made huge strides over the years. While racism isn't dead, by any means, Blacks are far better off today than they were in the '50's and '60's. It's not even close.

Are Tibetans better off? I think not.



D&D. How About We Keep it Civil. Let's work on it.

(Impeach Bush!)

 

Don't bother. In the past 5 years, I have seen maybe a few incidents that a poster was convinced by another one and admitted wrong in GARM; however, I have yet to see one single incident that someone is "convinced" by others to change mind in D&D, even over tiny little discussions, not to mention a hot topic like Tibet. Honestly, there are far more informative Tibet threads in the past.

Of course beating innocent people is wrong, Tibet-Chinese or Texas-American. No question about that, but to lead the "discussion" to accusation of genocide in page one is too easy to predict, especially when the thread was opened by certain character.

Don't be naive to think that a doubled life expectancy, population numbers, and development pictures will change people's fixed mind of "genocide". Don't be naive to think that showing cruel slave owners' bloody past will change people's made up mind of "peace loving spiritual leader/followers". The funny thing is though, on the one hand, Chinese government was accused by some people of genocide and iron-fist ruling; on the other hand, the same people always claim to be so "resourceful" and "powerful" to freely meet disgruntled original Tibetan-Chinese over a day-trip.

Logic is never welcomed in D & D. People will tell you this is America, the freedom of speech granted them rights to say whatever they want to, if you feel offended. However, if you dare to explore how Chinese suffered in WWII, compare Rape of Nanking to Holocaust, the same people will tell you to shutup, because they are deeply OFFENDED. What are you? You are Chinese, even if you have a different citizenship, what else do you expect?

They are like Wade playing at the perimeter, and you are Yao playing in the paint. If you are not happy getting murdered down low, while Wade would be sent to FT lines even if he just decides to look at the refs, you can go back to China.

The same thing will happen over and over and over again, so why bother?

 

Don't go there man. Even if you're not convinced of something, that doesn't mean you don't learn something. Americans are fed propaganda on this issue, there's no question. Like I said people romanticize pre-Chinese Tibet to a ridiculous degree. But that doesn't make posts "illogical" if they disagree. They just disagree.

Your population numbers are all skewed by the fact that a majority of people in Tibet today aren't even Tibetan, they're Han Chinese. And on top of that all development statistics such as life-expectancy, birth/death rate, income, etc.. are all skewed. Split the Tibetans from the Chinese and you'll see the Tibetans rank worse in every category.

Good god, don't turn this into an us versus the world thing. No one's saying anything like that. People said that comparing the two was silly because they're both bad on their own merits and that its silly to have a battle over who had it the worst. I suppose we could throw the Armenians into the mix since the Turks screwed them pretty badly too. Yes, and I'll admit that Americans don't hear enough about the Rape of Nanking either but your spinning this into a game in which its rigged is nonsense. And even if some people tend to throw some really stupid stuff out there, Make your arguments. I for one think on the Tibet question, you guys are wrong but I still learn a lot and appreciate the other perspective. No one knows a god damn thing about Tibet in this country so I can tell you that I learned something. That being said I still disagree.

Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I'm illogical or anyone else is. Guess what, you could be wrong too. In fact, i still think you are but that doesn't mean anything in the context of an argument.

 

I am glad you said that you THINK not, unlike some other posters claim their thoughts to be facts. However, I am curious how do you define "better off".

From dying in early 30's to mid 60's obivously doesn't count.

From registered slaves to citizens of PRC doesn't count either, I guess.

From no access to any school or hospital to thousands of schools and hospitals isn't better off.

The list can go on and on, but since you think so, I don't dare to question the logic behind your thinking.

One thing I want to make it clear is, nobody said Tibetan-Chinese or any Chinese are living a perfect life. Nobody claims China as a whole, including Tibet and Beijing, doesn't deserve more freedom. But, Tibetan-Chinese are treated equally as other Chinese, if not better.

Then again, to claim getting rid of slavery is not better off is very offensive.

 

i'm bashing the BORG who don't recognize that beating Tibetan Monks is wrong. you still don't get it. Injustice is injustice. I don;'t care if its China or Mexico or America or in the Neutral Zone.

newplayer,
you can't copy my style or humor or substance. your attempt was FUTILE.

YOU ARE NOT CHINA my friend. so stop thinking you are. China is a country. People are People. does it take an alien invasion of reptiles eating humans to prove this point? Will you meet Diana?

 

1. you are as funny as a Tibetan Monk getting beaten down by a police man.

2. you still DONT GET IT BORG. I could care less if its about China or Mexico. My argument is that you fail to recognize human injustice. don't put this free-Tibet crap on me. I didn't say that. I'm saying you BORG are so assimilated and defensive that you are blind to see injustice.

but I know you are blind to human injustice, so i'm just here to exploit you.

 

A few points to raise:

1. It's easy to claim numbers are skewed, but without real statistics to back it up is just biased opinion.

2. All people live in Tibet are Tibetans, just like people living in Shanghai are Shanghainese, although the city didn't even exist 150 years ago. Again, to claim the population growth was caused only by migrated Han-Chinese is an opinion without any data to back up.

3. Again, to accuse Chinese of genocide is easy, but to provide evidence is impossible, no matter how one spins the data or history. Afterall, like I said, those people did meet original Tibetans easily in Tibet. On top of that, all the statistics are there for others to dispute. Simply a "skewed" comment is not serious discussion about very serious topic like genocide.

4. Not to derail the thread, I hate to compare which war crime is worse. But many posters did compare the attitude of different people in different countries facing past war crimes, and we did compare Western sentiments towards different war crimes and war criminals and victims. When people came out to say it's offensive to compare Nanking to Holocaust really pissed me off.

5. Of course I could be wrong on many things, and as I admitted many times that I could be hypocrite sometimes as well. But, comments like "I think" or "I believe" isn't convincing enough.

 

exactly! that's the BORG mentality.
no individual thought, just programmed to believe whatever the collective believes in.

that's like when Yao has a bad game, everyone knows he has a bad game, but the brainwashed zombies believe it was not real, that it was Tmac's or someone else's fault.

what does it take for you guys to recognize injustice? that human beings are greater than country or planet or universe?

What if YOU WERE TIBETAN? can't fathom that right? they aren't humans like you right?

you know what. let the government decide your life and your job your wife your sports teams etc. its not like you can think as an individual.

you'll never be James T Kirk. you'll never pass the star fleet simulator.

 

I would imagine that you are proud of the Chinese culture. I know I am proud of the Texas culture, warts and all. No one, and no people, are perfect. Don't you think that the Tibetan people are proud of their culture? Don't you think it might be a bit disingenuous to believe they would prefer that their culture be destroyed while getting these benefits you mention? Many of them, like better medical care, something desirable?

How would you feel if the Chinese people were offered the very highest standard of living, if only they would agree to the utter destruction of the Chinese culture? Would you agree to that? A billion Chinese people lifted to the highest living standards, if only they give up their culture. Would you like that?

I think not. It doesn't matter what flaws existed in the Tibetan culture to the Tibetans. It is their culture. If there were flaws, they would prefer to fix them themselves, in their own good time. What China is doing is a deliberate destruction of the Tibetan culture by encouraging and bringing in countless Chinese to Tibet, while actively doing what they can to destroy Tibetan culture by other means, as well. You will deny that, but that is the reality. You (China's government) would make Tibet like the rest of China. Spin it however you like, but don't be surprised to find a lot of people think the Tibetan people and their culture are being crushed by China, and that it is wrong.



D&D. How About We Keep it Civil. Let's work on it.

(Impeach Bush!)