1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

[SUN TIMES] Rahm Emanuel gave right message on violence, even if he was the wrong messenger

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Os Trigonum, Aug 19, 2018.

  1. Bobbythegreat

    Bobbythegreat Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2013
    Messages:
    51,967
    Likes Received:
    12,684
    I already said, they are taught it by example when their bitchass fathers run out on them, they are taught it by example when they see that a majority of their friends are being raised by their mothers after their bitchass fathers ran out on them. The example of it being taught by some of the music is valid. The example of it being taught by sports "heroes" who run out on their kids. I mean, there's very few situations where that kind of thing is spoken out against. It's completely accepted as nothing more than "**** happens"....as you showed.
     
  2. JayGoogle

    JayGoogle Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2007
    Messages:
    40,871
    Likes Received:
    21,824
    Again, that's the reality of the situation, that's not part of any culture, that's part of the reality of the situation. A situation handed to them, it's not part of any culture.

    It's completely invalid. If you're going to blame rap music then be prepared to blame all art. Is this really an argument you want to make?

    Lul, it's spoken out against tirelessly. I have no idea what you're saying there. Hell, have you ever seen a Tyler Perry movie guy? Like a single one? One? Just one? How many of these movies, songs, etc etc have you actually watched? None of that is ever endorsed

    Yes, like how your dad went to prison on non-violent offenses and now isn't in your life anymore...or how you are so broke that you have to go serve the military because you see that as a way out and never returns home...or maybe your dad was killed for being in the wrong place at the wrong time...

    If you blame the environment, fine, but blaming some imaginary culture that you can't define or explain is BS.
     
  3. jcf

    jcf Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2012
    Messages:
    2,189
    Likes Received:
    2,268

    It is offensive to say "it is African American culture for fathers to abandon their kids."

    If statistically more African American fathers do actually abandon their kids, a better issue might be why and what contributed to that phenomenon. I am guessing (no data, sorry) that some pretty strong arguments could be made that it stems from historical mistreatment. And that there are all kinds of other complicated factors in play.

    And before folks bash me, if we can agree that kids learn from their environment and the forces around them, we should be open to the idea that this isn't a chosen or natural cultural norm but a result of what has occurred over years.

    That is not saying that we should just blame the past forever. Or that any father who abandons their kid(s) (actually abandon as opposed to leave for other reasons) doesn't bear responsibility. But words that imply that it is intrinsically built into a particular race are wrong.
     
    JayGoogle likes this.
  4. Bobbythegreat

    Bobbythegreat Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2013
    Messages:
    51,967
    Likes Received:
    12,684
    It really is though. That's the best explanation for why that situation is so prevalent in one community and it isn't in others.....unless you think it's merely biological and I would completely disagree with that.

    Music and art are part of culture, I'm blaming certain subcultures, thus I'm blaming certain art and music along with other things.

    LOL, no, I've never seen a Tyler Perry movie and I'm not sure I know anyone who has. That's a terrible example.

    Well yeah, criminality in the black community is a problem as well but that's another thing endorsed by certain poisonous sub cultures. I mean, I'm pretty sure you know this to be true, you just want to deflect and blame literally anyone else.
     
  5. JayGoogle

    JayGoogle Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2007
    Messages:
    40,871
    Likes Received:
    21,824
    Exactly, I don't think there is anything in your post that anyone would bash you for. It is 100% spot on.

    Can you define black culture? You seem to be the expert on it here, so give it to us.

    If you are blaming music then blame music. I think it would still be a foolish thing to do, hip-hop is worldwide and global. I think just blaming rap music and being done with it is the same thing every generation does. "Books are BAD! Rock music is BAD! Vidya Games are BAD!" or "Things I don't understand are bad!"

    Welp, that's part of the problem then, isn't it? Tyler Perry makes millions off these movies or did when he was making them.

    Spoiler alert. In nearly every Tyler Perry movie the bad guy is some black dude that abandons his child and runs out on a woman...the good guy is the opposite. This is nearly every one, I know, because I know black women, I watch these films with them. But again, my experience I guess is nonmaterial, you're the expert on these things.

    So according to you, Bobby, the expert of African-American culture, no one ever speaks out against this. Not the rappers, athletes, preachers, films...

    Everyone just endorses and celebrates it, right?

    Says the guy literally blaming rap music instead of poverty and the environment and how these issues always pop up during poverty

    I bet you also think that narcocorridos are the reason that Mexican Cartels exist too, right?
     
  6. Bobbythegreat

    Bobbythegreat Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2013
    Messages:
    51,967
    Likes Received:
    12,684
    You misunderstand, it's not "black culture", I'm talking about American subcultures popular in the black community, among others.
     
  7. Bobbythegreat

    Bobbythegreat Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2013
    Messages:
    51,967
    Likes Received:
    12,684
    Poverty doesn't cause single parent homes, poverty is the result of it.
     
  8. Cohete Rojo

    Cohete Rojo Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2009
    Messages:
    10,344
    Likes Received:
    1,201
    You are wrong for stating that this is just "a rap lyric" -- as if it were the only one of its kind to have ever existed.

    Only a pillaged cavity, once the domicile of a functioning intellectual organ, could come to that disingenuous conclusion.

    I am often reminded of how much of a "racist" I am here on this message board. That is especially true when it comes to hitting back at "white privilege" -- or what I like to call jealousy of the ends and not the means.

    Because here is the truth about growing up "white" with "white privilege" and what it actually is:
    • My father never abandoned my mother
    • My parents never abandoned my brother or me
    Now, for someone like you, you may say it was easy, or that my parents never had to sacrifice anything. That would be easy enough for you to say, making you an intellectual coward.

    Go ahead, dismiss this as "a rap lyric" or "just a whatever", and feel free to use as a body shield the topic of mass-shooting -- it makes you look as brave as a Palestinian "freedom-fighter" who cowards behind children and women, using them as human shields.

    I will however give you credit for one thing: saying that someone clearly doesn't know entertainment from reality. But that someone isn't you, and that someone isn't me. Take a guess who it is.
     
  9. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 1999
    Messages:
    31,524
    Likes Received:
    8,944
    This. I appreciate the thread starting service, but if you're going to post a bazillion op-eds, at least offer your own thoughts on it as well.

    On topic, this appeal to family and faith is as useless as when conservatives do it. What's the action item here? Poor people, pull yourselves up by the bootstraps! Perhaps the underlying implication is that they never thought to dedicate themselves to God, or parents never thought to love on their children. That's ridiculous. The desire is already there, it is intrinsic to humanity. It's the ability and opportunity. You will find no success in telling people to just try harder because they're stuck in a rut. You need to fix education and job markets and law enforcement and services and give people some success and hope. And to hear this from Emmanuel is worse, not because he's white, but because he runs the city that under-delivers all these elements necessary for a strong community. Which is not to say he's not doing anything -- it'll take a generation to turn around Chicago's problems. But it sounds tone deaf to me for the guy who has the most power to turn to the people who have the least and tell them to try harder.
     
  10. Buck Turgidson

    Buck Turgidson Mineshaft Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2002
    Messages:
    54,616
    Likes Received:
    40,274
    Definitive proof that rap music causes violence:

     
  11. JayGoogle

    JayGoogle Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2007
    Messages:
    40,871
    Likes Received:
    21,824
    Then instead talk about the subculture.

    Most absent fathers do it because they feel they can't provide for the baby and don't want the responsibility of it.

    Truth is, you know 0 about what you speak.

    Hell, Drake, famous popular rapper, was attacked...in a song and in social media...for being a deadbeat...let's remember that the below are used as an insult, according to some, being a deadbeat is celebrated in rap...

    more rap lyrics...

    I mean, you want to play a game? We could. For every bad lyric you find I could find a good one. Rap music is just music, my dude. Some of it reflects on bad parts of life some of it reflects on good parts of life, it's all imitating some part of someone's life. That's it. A story to be told through poem and song.

    Again, blaming rap music is like blaming narcocorridos for inspiring Cartels, when it's the other way around.

    I'm sure as rockers talk about their groupies you're not wagging the fingers at them...or singing about how glorious death is and making death anthems, where are your morals for them?

    "The lyrical themes of death metal may invoke slasher film-stylised violence,[3] but may also extend to topics like Satanism, religion, occultism, Lovecraftian horror, nature, mysticism, philosophy, science fiction, and politics.[4][5] Although violence may be explored in various other genres as well, death metal may elaborate on the details of extreme acts, including mutilation, dissection, torture, rape, cannibalism, and necrophilia. "

    Sounds absolutely lovely. Hey, personally, more power to them.

    And so have millions of black children. Most black children live with their father, so I have no idea what you are talking about above, as if that's some part of 'white culture' that is absent in 'black culture'

    That's not white privilege. White Privilege is getting easier prison sentences, not getting wrongfully convicted, not getting passed on for a job for having 'ghetto' names. That's white privilege.

    Well, I'm just wondering when we get to talk about mass shooters and white culture. It seems all you want to do is talk about black culture but not address your own cultural issues. To me that's cowardly. You're the one pointing fingers, so don't throw stones when you live in a glass house.

    Personally, I think it's all stupid, art doesn't make rational people imitate it. Crazy people, sure, but rational normal everyday people naturally separate things from a song or a movie or a game from their real life.

    Sure, some people think Jay-z and rappers look cool as they are on yachts with bikini-clad women...just like some people think the Joker from the Dark Knight is cool...or Darth Vader...or any other villainous character. Doesn't mean that people want to imitate that character though.
     
  12. StupidMoniker

    StupidMoniker Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2001
    Messages:
    12,060
    Likes Received:
    451
    Less than half of black American children live with their father. This is a problem that exists in all communities, but to a greater extent in the black community. I know as well as anyone that white fathers are not always there either, but there is a stark contrast in the numbers.
    http://www.fathers.com/statistics-and-research/the-extent-of-fatherlessness/
     
    JayGoogle likes this.
  13. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2010
    Messages:
    28,923
    Likes Received:
    16,057
    I know how you solve the single parent issue in the black community. Mass incarceration of non violent offenses and placing police cheifs in power that explicitly target black adult males for unsolved thefts and murders to make their numbers look better.

    Also by funding public school districts through local property tax with little federal support so poor black neighborhoods don't have the proper "bootstraps" to pull themselves up with thus continuing the circle of life of poorly educated black males being arrested and incarcerated for non violent offenses or offenses they didn't even commit.

    Also we can ignore the prior 400 years between slavery and Jim Crow era segregation and explictly racist polices that force funneled black families in to poor neighborhoods with **** schools.

    Doing all that above and yelling at black people that they suck at parenting will solve the problem.
     
    #33 fchowd0311, Aug 20, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2018
    JayGoogle, mdrowe00 and jcf like this.
  14. JayGoogle

    JayGoogle Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2007
    Messages:
    40,871
    Likes Received:
    21,824
    You are correct so allow me to correct myself.

    The issue, as stated by the two I was discussing with, were fathers abandoning their children, so I'm thinking more of in terms of fathers not being there at all.

    A CDC study (https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhsr/nhsr071.pdf) found that black fathers have a high involvement in the lives of their children. Just that the stats don't show it because of step-children and the like. I think this is more of an issue and it's always the issue of the poor, no matter the race or time period, that they have babies unprepared and broken families where two mothers have to share a father, but the father may still be there.

    I think a better study statistic is how many black children know their fathers at all, at least if you were trying to argue that black fathers abandon their children and that it's just part of their culture.
     
    StupidMoniker likes this.
  15. StupidMoniker

    StupidMoniker Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2001
    Messages:
    12,060
    Likes Received:
    451
    I would say there is a significant difference between a father being around on the periphery (occasionally reading to, changing diapers of, or eating with the kid), and being in the home. Your link indicates black fathers are three times more likely to have a non-cohabitating child as white fathers (~24% to ~8%). I would say that is probably likely to have a negative effect on outcomes for the lives of those children, though certainly a child growing up without a father can be successful (I consider myself at least financially successful and have not seen my father since I was around 3).
     
  16. Astrodome

    Astrodome Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2015
    Messages:
    6,446
    Likes Received:
    6,435

Share This Page

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now