Wow, two Muslim organizations you could find (and I know you had to dig for that) to say that the attacks were unjustified. I am amazed that you would even try to justify what the Palestinians did when they celebrated the death of thousands of your fellow citizens. If infidel and jihad aren't as negative as we believe them to be, why would your Muslim ancestors see it fit to impose a tax and curtail completely the rights of those not-so-bad infidels living within their borders? Now if the word infidel doesn't mean non-Muslim pond scum, why would they deserve to be taxed just because they didn't pray to Allah and read the Koran? My point is that those whackoes are not a minority of Muslims. Most Muslims throughout the world agree with them. The Koran preaches a doctrine of war on the unbeliever when Christ taught that the primary commandment was.......to love. It's just a shame that in the past, Europeans denied their faith and acted sinfully outside its boundaries in various atrocities.
Yes, It was hard finding those few sources, because of the fact that American Media does not signify such a denoucning. I also remember Prince Walid Bin Talal Denouncing it, but now it is nowhere to be found. Again Media is as biased as the public. I also gave you two other possibilites of what the video's could have been .| .| .| \ / A reason why the non muslims were taxes is because they backstabbed the Muslims. At first Mohammad(pbuh) allowed jews/christians/idolworshippers stay in town for free, but then they made a plan to kill him. They plotted against him, and they were the leak, who gave outsiders critical information about strategic military and personal things. Now, not even an idiot would let this happen again. They decided that next time, all the nonmuslims will pay taxes, and those who dont, dont need to stay in this Muslim empire. Its Plain and Simple. I give you a warning, you repeat your mistake, and I lay down the law. Even earlier than this, The prophet used to eat and dine with his Non Muslim counterparts all the time. This again was until the revelation came down that we are not to eat of swine, nor drink alcohol, and they decided to go on their way, and Muslims were told not to dine with the nonbelivers anymore. No where does it say that OK go shoot him in the head because he is eating pork. We are told in the Quran that everyone will be treated fairly based on how they acted in this world. O yea, another thing is that, We are told still to Listen to everyword in the Bible, ofcourse the bible has had changes and many editions, but if you brought out the original text to me, I could prove to you that most religous Muslims will follow the Bible just like the Quran.
Your explanation is nothing more than nonsensical attempts to rationalize a horrible injustice. Maybe I think we should tax all the Muslims in America just because they are Muslim to pay for all the security issues we've had to deal with thanks to their brethern. You guys would cry like a bunch of children who dropped their lollipops on the ground, begging the store to give you another one. That's not far, you'd say. Well, what about the Jews and Christians who lived among you. Was it far then? And you think the media is biased against Muslims here? Well, lemme guess, it's that damned whitey/jew/jap conspiracy that dominates the media, administered by the evil Carlyle Group and the Trilateral Commission in their attempt to become a new global dictatorship. Sure....right.
bamaslammer, I read every one of your posts. Even if you are right (I don't think yo uare), you smear the truth with your ignorant approach. You're not here to discuss, you're not here to exchange information, you're just here to say what you have to say. Sever Rockets Fan, First of all, I wasn't reffering to you in specific when I said "What sickens me..." Since you claim to have actually read into other religions, my post in fact has nothing to do with you then. If you think that 4% of a human brain is enough to be able to everyday decide what i right and wrong, then that's your business. If you actually never made a mistak in your entire life, then that would be fine. But just the fact that we are HUMAN and PRONE to mistakes leads me to believe that I need the creator's advice on how to achieve the closest thing to being perfect as my minuscule brain allows. Religious books include a set of rules that, if you follow exactly, will allow you to complete a perfect life, free of evil and wrong-doing. However, it's almost impossible to do this. Anyone can eventually learn how to drive, but it sure helps to take driving lessons and read the manual, wouldn't you say? Now, to the main point. You're telling me that no religion has any proof that they're true. You're also saying that I believe in somethinhg and that religion may crumble any day now leaving me with essentially ZIP from what I used to believe in. islam was forced on me until the age of 18. You're making it sound like I have no choice now and that I haven't seen anything but Islam. That's not true. As I said, I have read parts of the bible, I have read about Juddaism, I've in fact researched pretty much every major religion in the world, and none was able to prove that they are true. Islam is the only religion to actually state the purpose of life, and is the only religion that has predictions within it that have actually materialized. Predictions that no normal human being can make. Are you saying that hundreds of years ago, when Islam was born, someone knew the scientific facts behind the birth of a baby? Then how do you explain its complete explanation the Qura'an? Dont' skip this point. I want to hear your answer on this, and if you don't believe it I'll show you, and if you're still not convinced I'll show you similar predictions that have come true. The best thing about this is that, if Islam is true, it immediately validates 4 other religions. Muslims do believe in Jesus, Moses, David and Abraham PBUT as prophets of Allah. They believe in those 4 books and acknowledge that they are descended from God. But obviously, only in the true and original message of these books, the unchanged versions (if changed versions truly exist). I really wonder how you came to your way of thinking. I've never heard anyone bashing strong faith on something. Blind faith is ridiculous, but you have no faith at all, and I don't think that's better. At least they're on their WAY to something, they're on the right path. You haven't even begun yet in my eyes. You think that you're bron and then die, and that's it? Then why be here in the first place? Because of science? What created science? I don't know if I mentioned in my previous posts, but there is scientific evidence that the Big Bang is scientifically impossible, and the creation of the world was too fast to just happen on its own. Scientists have yet to provide any empirical evidence as to how the hell the Big Bang took place and created the world in such a short period of time. I'll look up my posts for this, and I'll try to find it elsewhere if it's not there. It all comes down to one thing. People who don't believe in religions think too highly of themselves. They think they've got it all figured out and truly believe that someone with relatively the same brain capacities could create a religion as grand and complex as Islam, Christianity, or Juddaism for example. That someone actually sat down and made these stories up, then set up effective rules that have applied through centuries. These people also were able to coax similar humans into believing what THEY wrote. Why don't modern religions have similarly complex books? Why can't people who grow up in unfortunate situations without guidance just, for themselves, know the difference between right and wrong? Why are people who grew up with no parents more likely to steel? Who would you let drive your new Ferrari, someone who learned to drive on their own or someone who got their license from a good driving institute?
Ignorant? I've read the Koran. I've also read scores of books about the history of Islam. So I've not just pulled my conclusions out of my posterior. Everything I've said is true, from the treatment of Jews and Christians at the hands of Muslims to their intolerance for anyone who does not bow and pray in the direction of Mecca. I back my facts up with sources, the opposition says, "I will refute that" but never do. Some people actually had no problem with the Muslims taxing people because they weren't Muslim for the priviledge of living in their lands! Unbelievable.
With an exception of the last 50-75 years, Jews have had MANY MORE FREEDOMS in Islamic lands than that of Christian Lands. That is a fact. Jews were not allowed to own land or property in Europe and were thrown out of half of the countries. Hell, 50 years ago some Europeans rounded them up and gassed 6 million of them. The FACT is that Muslims have HISTORICALLY been more open to other religions than Christians. That of course is with an exception to the last 50 years, in which much of the muslim world is in a post-colonization period and are very uneducated which I believe allows groups like Al-Queda to arise. So 50 years of muslim oppression of Jews versus 1,950 years! Hmmm.....Catholicism must be very violent and hate-ridden!
Why is my explanation so nonsensical, Would you like to elaborate, or are you just going to leave it at that. You do know that it doesn't help in a debate when you just say "o Your wrong" and leave. Well lets see NOT all countries are like America and have open bordres, this could be a good or bad thing. As Sane said, you live in someones house, you pay rent. That is how it is done in some countries. If you find that Wierd, well thats their customs. Its not a religious thing. Again, Using America as an example just doesn't work. This country was colonized on a basis of kicking others off of it. So who it belongs to is a question up in the air. But lets say the Vatican, for example, decides to charge all non christians a tax to stay in that country, well more power to them. Rock on. And again I have said this that the reason the Jews/Christians were taxed was because they had backstabbed the Muslims once, And you would have to be an Idiot to wait and let it happen again. The Non muslims tipped off outside invadders against the Muslim army. Only after that were they forced to pay taxes. Sept. 11 did not involve any AMERICAN Muslims, it was all outsiders. So you cant say that I will tax all Muslims coz of some idiots claiming to be Muslims.
First of all, I don't think you've read the Qura'an. You've most probably read a translation. That's almost as good, but it's not good to mix the 2 things up. As I said before, Jews were forced to pay tax because they backstabbed the muslims. Do not ignore this point. Aside from this, even if they didn't, they were living in OTHER people's land. So you can say they were paying rent. If you don't agree with the first, then don't ignore this. If you and my brother lived at my house, you being a stranger and my brother being MY BROTHER, then I would charge you rent and not charge my brother anything. You would do the same. I don't pray. There is absolutely no sign of intolerance for me, and just by looking at me, you're morel ikely to assume that I don't pray than pray. I have never in my entire life seen any sign of intolerance arising from this issue. Aside from this, I have friends from when I was 12 years old that are both Christian. I don't treat them any differently than I do my Muslim friends. My friend, you ARE speaking from your posterior. Your sources were from a Jewish-run site. Your only argument is that Muslims taxed Jews. No one is saying it didn't happen. But everyone is saying that it was justified. The ten billion examples we gave you would be enough for a monkey to understand so I'm absolutely sure you get the idea of why they were taxed. You're sitting here and talking about Muslims have no tolerance for non-praying people? From now on when you meet people, tell them you're Muslim, then come back here and tell me how they "tolerate" it, ok? Then I'll tell people over here that I'm Christian, and we'll see how that goes. How's that?
I just realized that the real reason that nonmuslims got taxed was for payment for security and defense. Since all Muslims had to pay a percentage of their savings towards the poor, or towards the government, the Islamic Governments thought it would only be fair if the others living in this empire should also have to pay taxes. So Bama, your argument about only nonmuslims being taxed is incorrect since the Muslims already were paying a different tax(zakat). Now, just like in America, it is only fair that if you live here you pay tax. Well the Muslim countries had this down long before America did
This thread is turning into a crock of poop. Being Jewish, I would have to agree with the muslim posters that Jews were treated better in muslim lands. We were persecuted EVERYWHERE.. 6 million dead in the holocaust, tons were forced to convert or were expelled by Christians. Jews were beheaded in front of mohammad because they refused to convert. The question is, why should I hold these atrocities against the muslims and christians today? The answer is... I dont! There are good and bad people in every religion. There are good and bad aetheists. Just don't force your religion or beliefs down my throat, and i'll keep my fist out of yours .
This is a very silly argument. Saying "they" backstabbed muslims means that EVERY jew, even today is responsible for that. A certain few may have a thousand years ago. That is like saying some muslims attacked the US on September 11th, so therefore every muslim has to pay a tax. I'm not arguing that the tax was right, I feel it was wrong. What I AM arguing though is that historically with an exception to the last 50 years, muslims have been much more open to other religions that Christianity has. Of course Bammaslammer will state, "They Were not REAL Christians" versus Al-Queda is what Islam is about.
Originally posted by Sane Severe Rockets Fan, First of all, I wasn't reffering to you in specific when I said "What sickens me..." Since you claim to have actually read into other religions, my post in fact has nothing to do with you then. If you think that 4% of a human brain is enough to be able to everyday decide what i right and wrong, then that's your business. If you actually never made a mistak in your entire life, then that would be fine. But just the fact that we are HUMAN and PRONE to mistakes leads me to believe that I need the creator's advice on how to achieve the closest thing to being perfect as my minuscule brain allows. Religious books include a set of rules that, if you follow exactly, will allow you to complete a perfect life, free of evil and wrong-doing. However, it's almost impossible to do this. Anyone can eventually learn how to drive, but it sure helps to take driving lessons and read the manual, wouldn't you say? I hope you can keep and open mind in this conversation, I say this, because I've heard that in Islam, anyone that tries to make you question your faith is really 'the devil' trying to decieve you. This sort of keeps all Muslims on the defensive whenever questions like this arise. First off, where did you get 4%? Starting off with incorrect statements doesn't really help your cause. We actually use most of our brain for everyday activities. Yes, that science 'thing' again, but its absolutely true. But this seems to be your scientific 'fact' to establish how stupid and mistake prone us humans are and why we need a religion to 'straighten' us out on our path to rightousness, right? There is no way to live a perfect life or be perfect(unless you're Muhammad, right?) even if you're Muslim or practice any other religion. I'm sure you agree because you pretty much stated that in your post. I feel the same way. What exactly does Islam teach you that makes you a better person? How to treat people? I treat them the way I want to be treated. Is that hard to comprend? Does that take some 'divine' inspiration to act that way? If I treated them differently, don't you think 'bad things' could happen to me and them? I don't know, it sounds so easy to me...I dont' need some religion for that. How to eat and drink healthy? Staying away from pork? Not drinking alcohol, partaking in any drug that could impair your judgement? This all seems like common sense. Pork is not healthy and could contain diseases that are potentially fatal if not cooked right...duh. Drugs and alcohol in a lot of ways are bad for you and your state of mind? Cmon who doesn't know that? I mean tell me, what exactly does Islam tell you that modern studies hasn't figured out in a much more realistic jargon. When Islam was created(I forget around 600AD or something like that, right?) People didn't know these things. How intelligent do you think the average person was back in 600 AD? How superstitous do you think the average person was and how unable they were to understand the world around them? People were scared, unsure of their lives that were constantly threatened by war and famine, they needed something. What better way to make stupid people live healthy, more prosperous lives than appealing to their supersitions and possiblity taking away their blissful afterlife if they don't follow said path? This is what so great about Islam's message and the message of a lot of religions, it makes you live a non-gambling, non-womanizing, non-inebriated, disiplined life(non-sinning), which in turn creates a stable society in which everyone can flourish without fear of harm or disease. I don't think it takes a lot of brain power(oh maybe 4% ) to realize the true goal that these teachings are trying to accomplish. Now, to the main point. You're telling me that no religion has any proof that they're true. You're also saying that I believe in somethinhg and that religion may crumble any day now leaving me with essentially ZIP from what I used to believe in. islam was forced on me until the age of 18. You're making it sound like I have no choice now and that I haven't seen anything but Islam. That's not true. As I said, I have read parts of the bible, I have read about Juddaism, I've in fact researched pretty much every major religion in the world, and none was able to prove that they are true.I didn't mean that it may crumble, it was a hypothetical, silly. It was used to make you think and let you know that regardless of how highly you think of your religion, there are BILLIONS of people that don't think like you and many probably are liked by more people than you, more disiplined, successful, and not so religiously pompous ...and most of all, happy. Yes, happy without Islam, it's true. Gasp! Religion IS life to a LOT of people, I understand this,...it's just kind of depressing for me to know that immediately people identify themselves with something that segregates them from others. And thats what happens, that why there are wars and arguements that will never end. People believe so strongly in things that have no basis or proof, yet are willing to discriminate and even kill others because of it, simply because Ma and Pa told them it's the right way from the get go and THEIR Ma and Pa told them and so on and so on. For thousands of years its been like this...religion is suppose to be about living a good life, tolerance, understanding, right? When did infidels,martyr ,crusade, and god's will for HIS people, come into the picture? I'm digressing, sorry. Islam is the only religion to actually state the purpose of life, and is the only religion that has predictions within it that have actually materialized. Predictions that no normal human being can make. Are you saying that hundreds of years ago, when Islam was born, someone knew the scientific facts behind the birth of a baby? Then how do you explain its complete explanation the Qura'an? Dont' skip this point. I want to hear your answer on this, and if you don't believe it I'll show you, and if you're still not convinced I'll show you similar predictions that have come true. Your scientific facts on the human brain is well taken in the beginning your post. I don't think you should go this route. If there are some hard, DETAILED, facts about human development that came from this time period, I'd love to hear them. I hope you don't post things that "could mean this" or "sounds like it's hinting at this" or "It could only mean this...if you use this translation..." From what I've seen in a lot of religious references to predictions...they are never exact. Never. They don't tell you exact dates, they try to compare the events to other events that 'should' or 'would' happen, or to some astrological event that is 'probably' meant. Post what you got... I'd love to see your proof. The best thing about this is that, if Islam is true, it immediately validates 4 other religions. Muslims do believe in Jesus, Moses, David and Abraham PBUT as prophets of Allah. They believe in those 4 books and acknowledge that they are descended from God. But obviously, only in the true and original message of these books, the unchanged versions (if changed versions truly exist).Unchanged? The bible has been altered countless times throughout the years, in both translation and content editing. I think you know that...is that why you posted that last sentence? I really wonder how you came to your way of thinking. I've never heard anyone bashing strong faith on something. Blind faith is ridiculous, but you have no faith at all, and I don't think that's better. At least they're on their WAY to something, they're on the right path. You haven't even begun yet in my eyes. You think that you're bron and then die, and that's it? Then why be here in the first place? Because of science? What created science? I don't know if I mentioned in my previous posts, but there is scientific evidence that the Big Bang is scientifically impossible, and the creation of the world was too fast to just happen on its own. Scientists have yet to provide any empirical evidence as to how the hell the Big Bang took place and created the world in such a short period of time. I'll look up my posts for this, and I'll try to find it elsewhere if it's not there.LOL. The world is 3-4 Billion years old...a short time? I don't know...I think that needs to be filed with the 4% Brain 'thing', LOL. Anyways, is that why you're Muslim? Because it give you the 'answers' to all the questions you have about life? Hmm? Or because it tells you something that you want to hear, and lets you know that everything is going to be fine...that someone/thing is rightous,loving,and all-powerful and will take care of you(in this life and the afterlife) as long as you live this way? I don't know man. I can accept a few things in my life. 1. It will go on without me,regardless of what I do, say, or believe. 2. How I live and how I want to live are always going to be 2 different things simply because I'm human. Mistakes will be made by everyone religious or not. But doing the right things in life will make life comfortable, smooth, and much more enjoyable than living a life full of 'evil and wrong doing.' Hell, isn't it just common sense that you'll live longer and more fruitful if you follow rules and laws? It all comes down to one thing. People who don't believe in religions think too highly of themselves. They think they've got it all figured out and truly believe that someone with relatively the same brain capacities could create a religion as grand and complex as Islam, Christianity, or Juddaism for example. That someone actually sat down and made these stories up, then set up effective rules that have applied through centuries. These people also were able to coax similar humans into believing what THEY wrote. Why don't modern religions have similarly complex books? Why can't people who grow up in unfortunate situations without guidance just, for themselves, know the difference between right and wrong? Why are people who grew up with no parents more likely to steel? Who would you let drive your new Ferrari, someone who learned to drive on their own or someone who got their license from a good driving institute? You know, I was so impressed with Socrates and Plato when I read the Republic. Their reasoning abilities were incredible, and this was 400 BC! They were in ancient Greece yet they were SO logically in tune. Is it that difficult to think that many people(not just one) could get together, men of power and persausion, could come together and start a following? Look at small groups that are started up all the time by not-so-smart indivduals. Davidians, heaven's prisioners, etc. People naturally look for answers they want to feel like they'll be all right, that someone is looking out for them. People can be convinced of a lot of things when they're under a lot of stress and ignorant. Or is that just not plausible? Whose to say how many untold events took place before a religion became a 'main' religion, or how many others failed before them? I don't have everything figured out, hell, I don't know whats going to happen after I die. I always thought its strange that religions tell you about how 'great' you're going to have it after you die...I mean, cmon, if it isn't, what are you going to do? After all, you're dead. The dead don't speak. Is it that scary to image there will be a time when our awareness will simply cease? Can anyone here remember what they were aware of BEFORE we lived? Why should that change after we die? Thats life...
Note: I can keep an open mind, I've had enough of these discussions to be able to rationalize them from everyone else's perspective. On a side note, Islam does not state that everyone who tries to question your fate is the devil. It does, however, state that any situation where you tempted to do something which you know is wrong is inspired by the devil. Much like movies in which you have an angel on one shoulder and the devil on another. I believe Christianity goes by the same thing, correct? Ok, first and foremost, humans can only use 5% of their brains at a time. It's not from the Qura'an, this is a fact. Link Now, you claim that any normal person does know that alcohol and drugs are bad, they shouldn't do it, it clouds judgement, bla bla bla. Well, in Islam, the main reason for not drinking or doing drugs is because it harms the body, and Islam states that your body doesn't belong to you so you odn't have the right to harm it. in Islam, your body belongs to God, and anything you do to harm his property is wrong. Listen, anyone can gifure out the basics and fundamentals of a good and pure life. But you'll never get it down completely right. No human is perfect, and no one will able to go by the proper rules 100%. Everyone knew that alcohol and drugs alter your judgement, but not till scientists proved it did it become a serious concern. So there needed to be some hard facts for people to buy into that stuff. A little alcohol doesn't alter your judgement, so why not have a little bit? After all, a little alcohol once in a while is GOOD for the body right? It's in these situations that religion make a difference. It's not my property, it's not for me to harm. It's basically a rental, and you need to take care of it so that when you turn it in, you get your deposit back. But again, this all hinges on your faith that Islam, or any other religion, is the "true" religion. The difference between me and you is that you see religion as PART of life while I see religion as life itself. Religion is a subdivision for you, while in my case, everything else is a subdivision of religion. Let me just touch on this. The most fun way to live life is to have tons of friends, have the girl you want, party every night, not have to work, have lots of money, get wasted and have the time of your life day after day. Any man will agree that there's no greater pleasure than being able to sleep with the woman of your dreams, or for some, many women from many dreams, heh. Islam does NOT disagree with this. Islam plainly says that, if you do this stuff, you won't reap any benefits later. However, if you abstain from this stuff during your lifetime, then you'll have everything you want for all of eternity. That is what Islam states, and I'm just mentioning that as a note. Not adding to the validity of anything (not that I think it needs any), just saying.. Religions don't cause wars. People who can only use 5% of their brain at a time cause wars. It's just like saying guns kill people, when in fact, the person pulling the trigger is killing the other person. Completely inconceivable, not plausible whatsoever. If many people created a religion, everyone else would find out. Back then, everything happened within like 10 feet of each other. If lots of people got together and made a book, people would find out. Also, Muhammad PBUH was an uneducated man, couldn't read and couldn't write. If your assumption holds, that would mean that EVERYONE who knew Muhammad (basically his whole tribe) would have to be in on this book-writing. So basically all these people were in on it, and there was never any rumor, any proof, or anything like that of a group of idviduals writing this book? This is what happened with Zorastrianism, and it failed because people ultimately knew that not one person wrote this book, but a group of philosophers looking for a better society (With all due respect to Zorastrians, some of the most decent people on earth). Some remarks: - Yes, that's what I meant with my last line. I don't understand how Christains believe the Bible is God's religion, then they go touch it up? What gives anyone the right to change God's words? - Religion states a whole lot of things that people already know, and some thigns they don't. It's the faith in the religion that allows you to follow some of its aspects without questioning why or how come. I.E., I don't know why certain things are forbidden, but if God said so, and I believe that this is God's book, then I'll do it and ask questions later(after life). - I'm not at home right now, but once I get home I'll try and find the scientific facts I was talking about (in English translation hopefully) and post them here.
Exactly what I believe. Right on DD. Religions are BS, no offense. I do believe in something that created the universe, but I believe that my comprehension of that something is impossible.
Great stuff Sane. Originally posted by Sane Ok, first and foremost, humans can only use 5% of their brains at a time. It's not from the Qura'an, this is a fact. Link You gave me a paper written from an undergrad college student? Cmon man, you didn't even look at the resources she used. Her 2nd source CLEARLY states this "Brain imaging research techniques such as PET scans (positron emission tomography) and fMRI (functional magnetic resonance imaging) clearly show that the vast majority of the brain does not lie fallow. Indeed, although certain minor functions may use only a small part of the brain at one time, any sufficiently complex set of activities or thought patterns will indeed use many parts of the brain. Just as people don't use all of their muscle groups at one time, they also don't use all of their brain at once. For any given activity, such as eating, watching television, making love, or reading Skeptical Inquirer, you may use a few specific parts of your brain. Over the course of a whole day, however, just about all of the brain is used at one time or another. " Its so strange that she says this statement in her paper At any given point in time, about 5% of the neurons are active...Yet the resource she stated for this doesn't say ANYTHING like that nor does she give a resource at anytime in her paper that shows where she got the '5%' information. Hell, in her own paper she says that humans use the 'MAJORITY' of their brains...when did a majority mean 4-6%? Try again. Its funny that you used a religiously inspired 'science' website to get your info. I don't know man... Well, in Islam, the main reason for not drinking or doing drugs is because it harms the body, and Islam states that your body doesn't belong to you so you odn't have the right to harm it. in Islam, your body belongs to God, and anything you do to harm his property is wrong. I see. I our bodies are just rentals? Gotcha. Listen, anyone can figure out the basics and fundamentals of a good and pure life. But you'll never get it down completely right. No human is perfect, and no one will able to go by the proper rules 100%. You're right no one will live a perfect life, or go by the proper rules 100%...not even those that practice Islam, right? I've met quite a few Muslims that had not been 'completely' in their faith their whole lives. Where does that leave them? Its a strange question, but I'm just curious. A little alcohol doesn't alter your judgement, so why not have a little bit? After all, a little alcohol once in a while is GOOD for the body right? It's in these situations that religion make a difference. It's not my property, it's not for me to harm. It's basically a rental, and you need to take care of it so that when you turn it in, you get your deposit back. So ANYTHING that harms the body is forbidden? Again, just curious. The difference between me and you is that you see religion as PART of life while I see religion as life itself. Religion is a subdivision for you, while in my case, everything else is a subdivision of religion.Thats great man. Islam is a great guide to live a healthy, productive life. No doubt. Its got some issues about women and freedom that I don't agree with, thats all. You know, a muslim man just wrote a book on the 'proper' way to beat a woman by 'Islam standards'. You believe everything Islam says word-for-word, right? Crazy stuff man. Let me just touch on this. The most fun way to live life is to have tons of friends, have the girl you want, party every night, not have to work, have lots of money, get wasted and have the time of your life day after day. Any man will agree that there's no greater pleasure than being able to sleep with the woman of your dreams, or for some, many women from many dreams, heh. Islam does NOT disagree with this. LOL. Those things sure are great, but they're all dead-end roads. If you live your whole life that way you'll be alone, burned out, and not have much to show for when you're old. Life's experiences can show you that, I don't need some book for it. I know, I know...I still wouldn't do it properly without Islam... I know. Islam plainly says that, if you do this stuff, you won't reap any benefits later. However, if you abstain from this stuff during your lifetime, then you'll have everything you want for all of eternity. That is what Islam states, and I'm just mentioning that as a note. Not adding to the validity of anything (not that I think it needs any), just saying.. Okay, this is the same ol' religious "If you're good now, then when you die you'll have eternal bliss." Of course, we don't have one shread of fact other than 'God's word' that this will happen. I don't know man. Religions don't cause wars. People who can only use 5% of their brain at a time cause wars. It's just like saying guns kill people, when in fact, the person pulling the trigger is killing the other person. The 5% thing again? Sigh... But I agree, people that use religion to kill others are missing some brain cells and seriously distorting the purpose of those religions. Completely inconceivable, not plausible whatsoever. If many people created a religion, everyone else would find out. Back then, everything happened within like 10 feet of each other. Really? Can you name the great communication devices they had back in those times? Carrier pigeon anyone? LOL. MOST people weren't exactly the smartest chaps back in those days and were very superstitous. Hell, a lot of people believed deeply in 'spontaneous generation' and that hexes and spells were a major cause of illness and disease. LOL, hell, some people in the 1800's still thought this. Do you think our ignorant ancestors would have the intelligence to weed out true scientific facts from lies, or would they more than likely believe in something that appealed to their emotional side while giving them a since of belonging with a growing group of people? What do you think happens to people in masses? Do you think they become smarter or more like sheep? If lots of people got together and made a book, people would find out. Says who? You? Were you alive then? Of course not, thats silly. How much history do you think was REALLY documented? Can you imagine how much history isn't in the books, if the books are even reliable? Also, Muhammad PBUH was an uneducated man, couldn't read and couldn't write. If your assumption holds, that would mean that EVERYONE who knew Muhammad (basically his whole tribe) would have to be in on this book-writing. So basically all these people were in on it, and there was never any rumor, any proof, or anything like that of a group of idviduals writing this book? This is what happened with Zorastrianism, and it failed because people ultimately knew that not one person wrote this book, but a group of philosophers looking for a better society (With all due respect to Zorastrians, some of the most decent people on earth). Thats interesting about Zorastrians. What would history say about them had people not found out? So Muhammad wasn't educated at ALL. Question: Wasn't he taken up to heaven to have a conversation with God and came back down enlighten? Just curious. - I'm not at home right now, but once I get home I'll try and find the scientific facts I was talking about (in English translation hopefully) and post them here. Cool. I'll be waiting.
First off, let me say that I repect you for being able to carry on with this conversation the way you have. Specifically, the way other people have not been able to. I don't know about you, but I've already benefitted from discussing this with you, I've learned new things, seen new angles, and its even created questions that I will, myself, need answered soon. About the 5% thing, I honestly just searched Yahoo and put up the first thing I found. Didn't know if it had anything to do with religion. However, I'll try to explain to you what I mean by the 5% thing: You use the majority of your brain during a day, however, to do one specific task, you use a sector of the brain, specifically 5%. That's what the link says, and I don't think you're disagreeing with this, are you? Because, we do use all our brain for different functons, however, to make one decision, you use a small portion of your brain - 5%. No one's perfect. You'll be judged by your the effort you put in to do everythign right, and the effort you put in to erase your mistakes. In Islam, there are a few mistakes that can't be erased immediately, while 99% of mistakes can be erased through the process of "Towba" which means asking for forgiveness and admitting you're wrong. Again, we both agree that no one can do everything 100% right, but everyone can put in 100% effort. If you're heart wants to do theright thing and you put 100% effort into it, then you've done your job. A controversial example of this is if you are not very smart or receptive, then fly into the WTC killing innocent people, you may actually be excused from this. You see, the person WANTED to do the right thing and THOUGHT it was the right thing, and was INFLUENCED to do the wrong thing. This all hinges on whether or not this guy was smart enough to make his own decision - it's like blaming a handicapped person for not being a good basketball player. Ok, when I say this, it's going to sound extremely like a 'this guy is living in the dark ages" type of thing, but basically the rule is that if it harms you and doesn't help the process of worshipping God, then it's bad. For example, sports can lead to injury. However, everyone knows that you need to be active to maintain a healthy body, so it's fine. Smoking on the other hand is harmful, and while some people may be addicted and need it to live a normal life, it was their mistake in the first place to take up smoking. First of all, compare wife-beating percentages from everywhere in the world to the Arab/Muslim world. Once you've done that, we'll touch on this topic again. Secondly, this man CLAIMS to know what's right and wrong. I'd like to know who this guy is, so if you could tell me his name, that would be great. I won't tell you wife beating doesn't exist in Islam, but it exists everywhere in the world regardless of religion. Some people, due to their PERSONALITY, believe that beating someone will get them to understand. I'm a Muslim, and I disagree with this, and would never raise my hand on my wife. I believe what Islam says WORD-FOR-WORD, but what makes you think this guy's book is the Qura'an? As for the group of people writing the Qura'an, I just can't come to this conclusion, and I don't think you would either if you read a translation of the Qura'an. It's as unlikely as me developing the cure to AIDS (Finance major, living in the Middle East, have no connection whatsoever with medicine). The prophet Muhammad PBUH was well known, a poor man with no education, working for his rich families, living in remote areas, always hungry, very indifferent to life. If a whole bunch of people wrote a book, they wouldn't get away with it for the very same reason teenagers get caught with p*rn mags under their pillows - the house is too small, and it's incredibly difficult to hide things. But in this case, we're saying 3 kids are hiding one tank in their room, and the parents didn't find out...how? Yes he was, but this was later on. In the first message, the angel Gabriel descended and Muhammad said something along the lines of "I am not a reader". He was forced to learn how to read and write. In this "trip" he was shown the heavens and hell, and came back down, at which point he was enlightened FURTHER. Let me ask you, if you don't believe in this stuff, then what's your purpose in life? What are your goals and what do you want to achieve? Note: Will get you the links, I won't forget.
Hi Sane. I wanted to touch on this topic. If you look at some statistics that the UN has compiled: http://unstats.un.org/unsd/demographic/ww2000/table6c.htm you'll see that domestic violence is much higher in listed Arab/Muslim countries than in the US/Canada/UK. It is absolutely NOT clear that this is a result of Islam being the dominant religion in those listed countries (Egypt, Bangladesh, Occ. Palestinian Territories, Turkey, Nigeria). In fact, I think the cause of so much of the domestic violence around the world is poverty based, not cultural. If you look, domestic violence is high in other poorer countries (Uganda, Puerto Rico, Nicaragua) that do not have Islam as the dominant religion. That said, Domestic Violence IS undoubtably higher in the middle east than in Western Europe and North America. (I encourage you to check out the actual Women in the World publication of the UN. I can't find an electronic version, but I was looking at the hard copy the other day). This is a terrible tragedy, and frankly, NO religion has come up with a way of reducing it. It seems like prosperity is the only way to alleviate domestic violence. This isn't a knock on Islam or any other religion, this is simply a statement of the reality that on a large scale, religion in general has simply not been effective at reducing domestic violence. I think this topic merits further research, and I'm sure many people have done so.
