Well, putting aside the incredibly narrow criteria established, you are telling me that you haven't heard of any rather severe anti-semetic actions practiced by "Christians"? Aside from the hundreds of thousands routinely killed every century in Europe as a means of avenging Jesus going back to the middle ages, aside from the fact that Jews were restricted from most professions, social organizations, educational facilities and government positions in many "Christian" countries until very recently, including most of Europe and the US, and aside from the fact that anti-semetism was a VERY popular and public sentiment throught the US and Europe up to WWII, there was this little thing called the Holocaust. Now I'll grant you that the Nazis, many of whom were Christian, and used Christian text as the basis for much of their positions on Jews didn't use suicde bombers, but the managed quite effectively all the same...
I honestly hate religions for this reason. They seem to divide people more than teach them tolerance of other people. If people could only use them for self improvement instead of "I'm this" "This is what WE do" "This is the REAL way of Christ/Allah" "We're going to heaven,and all non-believers to hell." There is so much hypocrisy and hate. What I always found strange is how confident and strongly people believe in their faith and shy away from others, yet I'm sure if they were brought up in another faith they'd feel the same way about that one. Still, everyone's sure about their own...hell they'd die for it, and thats what some do. Its pretty damn sad.
I feel what you are saying, but check this out. Almost every young Muslim in the Mosques is taught about every prophet, Jesus, Moses, Adam, etc etc. all the way down to Mohammed. We are also taught why the previous prophets word spread around, but didnt stick to its original format, and instead got changed around to appease the peaople. This is one thing Muslims strive to do. Keep the originality of the text, and word of "God/Allah" . Many of us believe history repeats itself, well I believe that at this point the quran seems outdated and at many times like a guidline to terrorism, well that is every ones opinion, but IMO it will come around one day, and It will seem like the way to do it. In other words it will be the way majorty of people think. Pre Marital Sex, Drinkin, Drugs etc will be shunned upon. That is not the case now, but hopefully it will be in the future. Again In Islam we are taught about other prophets and dont just think of other religious leaderes as Drunk whino's.
Couldn't have said it better myself. Islam acknowledges 4 other religions as descendant from Allah. This is, I believe, a little-known fact about Islam. Another thing to calrify is that Muslims don't hate all Jews - there is one line of Jewish people that Muslims hate. Aside from this, they hate Israelis because of their nationality, not because of their religion (as far as I know, this doesn't apply to all Muslim Arabs). We do NOT, by any means, assume that all Christians are going to hell as Severe Rockets Fan pointed out. The same can be said about the other 3 religions (Don't know the names in English). Severe Rockets Fan, You say people believe strongly in their religion just depending on what religion they're born into - this isn't true. As pointed out earlier, there are more devout Muslims in the world than devout Christians. How many people do you see in the Western world who complete the basics of their religion? Really, how many people pray and fast at the proper times, go to Church regularly, etc... The only sad thing about it is when people who aren't making an effort to obey their own religion come out and attack other religions. C'mon now, if you don't believe in Islam, FINE, but just pick a religion a follow it - everyone knows that almost ANY and EVERY religion AT LEAST teaches the difference between right and wrong. If you're not practicing anything then read into something. Nothing sickens me more than someone who hasn't made an effort to research any major religions and decides to be an atheist or something similar.If you know what's out there, and made a calculated decision to become an atheist or anything like that, then that's your decision. But when you pick it just because it's easier, that's just unfortunate. Thank God I was blessed to be born into a Muslim family. I honestly don't know what path I would take if I were, for example, born in some corrupt country with parents who didn't firmly believe in something and gave me a choice before I was ready to make that choice. The way I see it, I got it easy, and God blessed me. But instead of living with what I was given, I made sure to scpe everything out, dip into everything and learn as much as I can about other religions. Unfortunately, not everyone in the world will come to a point where they're comfortable taking a peak outside the boundaries of his/her own religion. But if you have the time, and if you care, I strongly suggest you see what else is out there - see for yourself, don't listen to the damn media.
Man Bamaslammed or errrr Jerry Fallwell... There is waaay too much hate boiling inside you. Every religious text has quite a bit of violence within it. Its so funny how you state horrible actions of a Christian or a Jew means that they do not truly believe, yet horrible actions of a Muslim are within his "nature" and "part of his religion". You would have been useful a thousand years ago with those arguments when the crusades were occuring. And for all you talk about the Muslims trying to kill the Jews, what about the oh 6 million that were killed by the Nazi's, who were Christians? And I am probably more agnostic in my beliefs than anything else, whereas you seem to be an evangelical southern christian waiting for some end of the world conflict GARBAGE. I'm looking at it from the perspective of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. You say Israel is an ally? I ask you who in THE WORLD would not be an ally after recieving billions of dollars of HANDOUTS annually to less than 10 million people. They recieve every preferred trading status and have our best military equipment, which they use in their constantly EXPANDING state. Oh and the 400 or so nukes they have from us is a nice little gift. I think its idiots like you singing in your 'Bama church that promote ignorance and hatred in this world. You cannot see individual wrong actions as wrong and would rather be the bigot you are and feel a whole race and culture are predisposed to 'evil'. You'd better stay in Alabama b/c your out of sync with the notion that there is a great, huge world out there outside of your inbred little town in your backwards little state.
so it's ok to hate people because of their nationality, according to Islam? is it ok to hate even that "one line of Jewish people?" i'm hoping you misspoke here.
Every book has a bit of violence? Well, the Koran mentions: Infidel:59 times Kill:65 times How about love, try a measly 12 times If you want to check my numbers, look here: the Koran I knew you'd bring up the Crusades. So I decided I'd bushwhack you with the facts. Guess who invaded whom first? Can you say the Muslims invaded Europe FIRST! Well, they did. Jihad in the West book review The Crusades, which also turned out to be an excuse for Christian knights to enrich themselves and behave in a non-christian fashion, were simply the Pope's response to the continued threat of Muslim invasions, which thank God for the victory at Tours, because the Christian world thanks to Islam would have ceased to exist. link How did I know that the Nazis were going to be brought into this. The Nazis were not Christian. Just because you happen to live in a nation where most of the inhabitants are Christian does not a Christian make. So I guess killing the Jews by the Nazis was an act of love, right? Wrong. A true Christian could not condone or participate in such actions. You really need to learn the difference between real Christians, who keep the most important Commandment: and those who pretend to be, yet are sinful and deceitful in nature. The Nazis were no more Christian than a pig is a horse. I'm not a southern Christian at all, but I'm Catholic. Catholicism does not believe in the impending "Rapture" like many of the protestant denominations do (which I agree with you, is a bit whacky. Who wants to live their lives in perpetual fear waiting for Gabriel's trump to blow?). The main reason I have an animus against most of the Muslim world and especially the Arabs who live in Israel is simply because while they claim to be a religion of peace, they ,by not condemning it, condone: 1. the continued suicide attacks by Muslims acting in their belief with the full endorsement of Allah to kill the infidel, even if the infidels are innocent civilians who can not fight back. 2. the continued hateful teachings and preachings in mosques throughout the middle east against everyone except Muslims. In other words, if you are not a Muslim, you deserve death. Constantly expanding state? They have done everything short of giving the "Palestinians" the sun, the moon and the stars in the Oslo Accords, but for Arafat, it would never be enough. It is always required that tiny little Israel, which is but a tiny part of the Middle East, always be required to give up land. Why is that the Arab states, if they are so concerned about the "Palestinians," never give up any land to give them a state they supposedly deserve? It is because the whole point is not about whether or not the "Palestinians," who are no different in culture, language or heritage to the rest of the Arabs, deserve a state (which they do not) but it is simply a way to destroy Israel, murder the Jews and take the land for themselves. I think with that rant you have revealed who really seethes with hatred here. I've laid out quite a damning case against the religion of Islam, one that I believe is a danger to the entire world. But the only way you can pathetically attempt to refute my arguments is through personal attacks of a generalized nature. Thanks for playing.
Nolen, Religious states are failures as governments - What leads you to this conclusion? Do you consider the U.S. a success? I certainly don't. I certainly don't consider the U.A.E., Qatar, Bahrain, Kuwait, Oman, and Indonesia failures. The horrible human rights track record of Islamist religious states (or most religious states of any religion in all of history. Simple as that. You know, I already went on at length on this topic in another thread, but I'll repeat myself here. It's ironic that you list those countries above as models, because their governments are far closer to western secular rule than their neighbors. It could be said that a countries' econimic/political success is inversely proportional to how closely it mixes religion with politics. Taliban at the bottom of the scale and UAE/Bahrain/Kuwait at the top. I grew up in Dubai myself. I readily admit the failings of my government, the USA, and I think there are many, particularly in the field of foreign policy. But I do think that in terms of allowing it's people to pursuse peace and happiness and fairness and justice for all, the US is light years ahead of what any religious state ever will be. It all depends on what we think a government should be, and it would be nice to have a government that reflects your morality and code of conduct as laid down by your religion, but history has shown for centuries that religious states are horrifically repressive and unjust to their subjects, and this is continuing to be shown in countries like Iran, the now deposed Taliban, Syria, Egypt, and others. The countries you listed above are the ones finally stepping out of the middle ages. What has Saudi Arabia - the ACTUAL GOVERNMENT - ever done that can be considered terrorist or wrong? Nothing, did you note that I blame the clerics? You know, the ones that 'enforce' religion on the population? They've raised a generation or two of terrorists (with the help of major US foreign policy atrocities.) Iran is an excellent and tragic example of clerical rule. You give a group of men the power of being "the voice of god" and it's all downhill from there. Go check today's news on what they're pulling now with the "elections." The way Iran oppresses it's own people is disgusting. Nolen, your problem is that you're blaming the source. You think that just because people claim to do things in the name of Islam that their acts are in fact justified in Islamic law. Dude, did you read my post? I went out of my way to say that I don't think the Islamic religion or the teachings of the Koran are inherently violent or morally bankrupt. I think the Koran can be interpreted or misinterpreted just like any other religious teachings. You'll find we're in agreement here. I totally agree that OBL and all his followers and Al Queda are responsible for their own actions, not the religion of Islam. But I still think that the rest of the muslim world is too eerily silent on the actions of the extremists. To repeat myself, imagine what the voices of the moderate majority could do if you spoke with one voice. If the extremists less than one percent of the population (let's say), then why do they have so much power? Why do the moderates allow it? Why? Why don't the other arab states condemn human rights violations that are commonplace in Iran and Egypt and Syria and many others? It's not okay to me at all that Israel kills so many young Palestinians, in a 4 to 1 ratio to their own people. It's disgusting. I also agree that the major source of Islamic extremists attacking America and Americans is their staunch support of Israel. My governments' support for Israel is utterly confounding to me. I do not understand at all how we give them so many billions of dollars and unflinching support at the UN when they perpetrate so many violations of basic human rights. I think we should force, and I mean force them to sit at the negotiating table and draw up peace plans and stick to them. We must take a step back from what is right now totally unfair support of the Israeli nation. We will not have peace until we get to the root of the problem. America is responsible for it's mistakes, and Americans are responsible in who they vote for and how they make their voice heard regarding our governments decisions. OBL and Al Queda and each individual suidice bomber and Islamic militant is responsible for his/her own actions. I also think that indirectly, the Islamic world population is responsible for their silence on the atrocities committed in the name of their religion. Peace and God be with you, we're in a real fix here and there's no easy way out. I pray for peace for us all.
bammaslammer and FDKahn, Your hypocrisy would be laughable if it weren't such a sad subject. Both of you trying to portray yourself as objective, and both so blindly biased it's insane.
SANE, Severe Rockets Fan, You say people believe strongly in their religion just depending on what religion they're born into - this isn't true. As pointed out earlier, there are more devout Muslims in the world than devout Christians. How many people do you see in the Western world who complete the basics of their religion? Really, how many people pray and fast at the proper times, go to Church regularly, etc...What does this have to do with children following the religion that their parent's basically force on to them at a young age? If you were born into a baptist family you would be baptist and talking bad about 'those' muslims, would you not? Sure some don't follow their religions as adamantly as you do, but that has nothing to do with them believeing in their faith. What I find strange is that people are SO sure about their faith, yet it all depended on their parents not that its actually something they've come to the conclusion from after being neutral and deciding whats best for themselves. The only sad thing about it is when people who aren't making an effort to obey their own religion come out and attack other religions. C'mon now, if you don't believe in Islam, FINE, but just pick a religion a follow it - everyone knows that almost ANY and EVERY religion AT LEAST teaches the difference between right and wrong. I don't need a religion to know the difference between right and wrong...I'm not some animal without a brain. I'm coherent and I care for my fellow man...I treat him the way I'd like to be treated, with dignity and respect, do you need religion to act this way? If you do, then I can see why religion was created. If you're not practicing anything then read into something. Nothing sickens me more than someone who hasn't made an effort to research any major religions and decides to be an atheist or something similar.If you know what's out there, and made a calculated decision to become an atheist or anything like that, then that's your decision. But when you pick it just because it's easier, that's just unfortunate.Sorry Sane, I'm not trying to sicken you.... I've read these boards plenty about religions, I've been approached numberous times by people that wanted me to come to their church, to pray with them, they try to 'convert' me into their society of the righteous and the saved. I've been to ALL different types of churches Catholic(my parent's denomination), Methodist(close friend's denomination and ex-girlfriend), Lutheran, MANY Sundays schools...and I've had many conversations with Muslims(one is a very close friend of mine) , who of course, like you, try to tell me why their religion is the 'true' one. Hell, I've even been bored at work and picked up a couple of those "AWAKE" paphlets put out by the Born-again Christians...read them cover to cover and was disgusted at the number of lies I read. I'm not ignorant of religions I understand how they work and what they try to teach...their lessons about how to live your live are invaluable and following those lessons, one can live a healthy, stable life...but they all require one thing which I don't have, Faith. There is not one religion that can be proven true, sorry, but there isn't...if there was, then there would be ONLY ONE, but there isn't. And thats what sickens ME, when people are so pompous to think that their's is THE one. Whatever. Thank God I was blessed to be born into a Muslim family. I honestly don't know what path I would take if I were, for example, born in some corrupt country with parents who didn't firmly believe in something and gave me a choice before I was ready to make that choice. The way I see it, I got it easy, and God blessed me. But instead of living with what I was given, I made sure to scpe everything out, dip into everything and learn as much as I can about other religions. Unfortunately, not everyone in the world will come to a point where they're comfortable taking a peak outside the boundaries of his/her own religion. But if you have the time, and if you care, I strongly suggest you see what else is out there - see for yourself, don't listen to the damn media. I agree. I'm glad you're happy with your life. Good for you. I have no religion and you know what? I'm TOTALLY happy. Really, it is possible. To me, it's sad to hear that you don't know what you would do without religion. You feel so strongly about something that was forced onto you as a young and impressionable child. But I'm sure you dont' see it that way. Question: What would you do if you found out tomorrow that Islam was fake? Regardless of what YOU thought, life would go on. Unless you strapped a bomb to your chest and blew yourself up.This is not meant as a joke, but something to think about...as positive as religions are, they can negatively affect those that don't want anything to do with it, this is of course, an extreme case.
Sorry I messed up the Quote Thing! This is a re-post! ORIGINALLY POSTED BY BAMMASLAMMED I knew you'd bring up the Crusades. So I decided I'd bushwhack you with the facts. Guess who invaded whom first? Can you say the Muslims invaded Europe FIRST! Well, they did. Jihad in the West book review The Crusades, which also turned out to be an excuse for Christian knights to enrich themselves and behave in a non-christian fashion, were simply the Pope's response to the continued threat of Muslim invasions, which thank God for the victory at Tours, because the Christian world thanks to Islam would have ceased to exist. link
I proved that just because you call yourself a Christian that it doesn't make you a Christian. Being Christian means living a Christ-centered life and lemme tell you, the Nazis, the Inquisitors of Spain, the thugs who massacred Jews in wonderful pogroms, the wholesale slaughter of Jews during the Black Plague are not acting in a Christ-like way. Gandhi said that and he was right. The British, while claiming to be a Christian nation, did not behave as disciples. Just like the line in the movie Fight Club: Saying you are a Christian and attending church occasionally is not what being a Christian is all about. You have to walk the walk as well as talk the talk. Why is that nearly every nation with a large population of Muslims is involved in some kind of conflict? Why is that the Koran only mentions the word love 12 times and killing (65 times) and infidel (59 times) innumberable times? It is an inherently violent religion. No amount of political correctness will change that fact. The proof is in the actions of the religion's followers and in the text of the religion itself.
And suicides aren't the Islamic way either. Its amazing how you let off the crusaders as not being "CHRIST" like but then slam all the Muslims into one huge group. Not fair, and plain Hypocrytical. The terrorist bombers/suicide bombers have all been denounced by Muslim Leaders all over. Never did we hear the pope denouncing the Crusades. Iraq, while claiming to be a Muslim nation, did not behave as disciples. Just like the Idiots who flew planes into the WTC. You do realize that all the times it says Killing and infidel it is referring to that in a battle against them. Most of the Quran was sent out during or before/after battles and mostly throughout the life of the Prophet. It was sent down partially as a guide on how to defeat the people that had kicked you out of your own land. It referred to the people that launched war on the Muslims as Infidels. Many words are loosly translated into Infidels/Kill. The Quran does not telll us to go out and shoot your JEWISH neighbour, instead it tells us to sit down, eat dinner, and share our own dinner with them. But beware, because in times past they have been shown to be backstabbers(probably referring to Christ and how he was done wront). BUT it still never says, Go kill that young Jew, he looks Jewish and is jewish, so I as a muslim have a right to Kill him. that is just ridiculous. Your explanation is like saying that just because a health book mentions 'Sex' 20-30 times it is now the Karmasutra and not a book about physical/mental Health. Amazing how great your analogies work.
Slightly OT : Iraqi leader tells followers - don't work with the foreign Arabic fighters - they're crazy. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,108391,00.html Saddam Told Loyalists to Not Side With Jihadists Wednesday, January 14, 2004 By Bret Baier WASHINGTON — Among the documents found with Saddam Hussein when he was captured last month was a directive written to his followers telling them not to join forces with foreign Arab fighters that may be streaming in to Iraqi to fight Americans, Fox News has confirmed. Officials said the directive — first reported in The New York Times Wednesday — appears to be authentic and was a strict warning from the deposed president to those loyal to him for them not to get too close to Islamic jihadists (search) crossing the border to join the insurgency. . . .
You have twisted my point about Islam to a tortured extreme. My point is this: just because you claim to be a Christian, you are not neccesarily one. The Koran is pretty damned specific on the point of dealing with infidels: The word infidel is mentioned 59 times. That is no coincidence. Islam believes that to be anything but a Muslim is to be lower than the lowest scum of the Earth. I'm tired of being told that Islam is a "peaceful religion" when nearly every nation with a large Muslim population is at war or suffering under severe upheaval. What can you say about a religion that inspires people to attach explosives to their bodies? As for your point about Muslim leaders condemning the attacks, I don't recall a one. There was no widespread comdemnation in the Arab world, rather, the Palestinians were having celebrations as the towers fell. Peaceful religion, eh?
The word infidel is mentioned 59 times. That is no coincidence. Islam believes that to be anything but a Muslim is to be lower than the lowest scum of the Earth. I know very little about Islam, but the word "infidel" has been distorted both in our own culture and by extremist Muslim leaders to be something evil. All it really means is "unbeliever". You can make some quotes from the Bible sound pretty evil too, taken out of context. These quotes sound fairly similar to Christian beliefs that anyone who doesn't accept Jesus as their savior (unbelievers or infidels) will go to hell (or not go to heaven). I'm not sure I understand the first of the five quoted phrases, but the other four seem almost identical to Christian beliefs - just saying to stay true to your beliefs even if others try to convince you otherwise. That's clearly mentioned in the Bible multiple times as well.
Again, We can go down that route again... "just because you claim to be a Muslim, you are not neccesarily one. " Did you even read my post. Infidels is translated from the arabic word which can also be translated into non believer/non muslim/jew/christian I wonder how many times you use those words during your everyday, does that make you a terrorist, NO. Again 4 of the 5 most Islamicly populated countries are not involved in terrorism. They are peaceful countries. Just because some idiot misreads the quran and goes tries to blow themself up does not mean it was the texts fault. Thinking that is Just stupid. Watching Playboy inspires many horny pervs to go out and commit rape, you never hear of Playboy being sued for rape(bad example, but it gets the point across). I still haven't gotten a respond on a denounce on the Crusades by the Pope, or any other Christian figure. As for the Palestinian celebrations. Think like one and you will understand. IF the big bully in the neighbourhood is beating you up every day, and takes your money one day, and its his friends in a gang who have his back, so you cant do anything about it. THey give the bully a gun, some bombs and some other painful stuff, and that makes him more harmful on you. Now suppose the gang members get shot in the head, would you be happy or would you go to the funeral of this gang member. Just Hypothetically, that might have been what is going on in their heads. They might have been misinformed when the video was shot, maybe it was old footage of a victory in a battle, maybe it was from a whole different location, Never base your judgments on the media. O yea just some condemnations from the leaders of Muslim countries after Terrorist attacks "Indonesia strongly condemns any form of terrorism, although in the fight against terrorism Indonesia can not condone intervention or aggression toward sovereign nations, http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/africa/9808/21/strikes.world.reax.02/index.html http://usinfo.state.gov/topical/pol/terror/01091232.htm http://www.uua.org/news/91101/mottomohagan.html Muslim Scholars Denounce Taliban Times Religion Writer In a growing intellectual challenge to Islamic practices abroad, leading Southern California Muslim scholars Thursday denounced the ruling Taliban's destruction of Buddhist statues in Afghanistan as contrary to their faith's laws and traditions. "The senseless policy of the Taliban regime in Afghanistan of destroying statues is a reprehensible act that must be condemned by all Muslims," said a statement signed by eight intellectuals at a forum convened by Minaret magazine and the Muslim Public Affairs Council in Los Angeles http://www.institute-for-afghan-stu...estroyed/islamic_reaction.htm#Muslim Scholars
