What in the recent 100 years of middle eastern history makes you think the people of the most staunch Islamic middle eastern nations will listen to anything that involves curbing the power their religion holds over their society? What makes you think an Israeli-Palestinian negotitation is possible? To expand on the second question, the majority of the Arabs I spoke to while living in Arabia would not have gone for separate Israeli and Palestian states. They wanted the complete removal of Jews from the middle east. They wanted Israel to surrender the foundations of the temple of Solomon to Muslim control only. The Israeli-Palestian issue goes much deeper than the Israeli's occupation of Palestinian land. The Israeli's would have no problem with separate Palestinian and Israeli states. The Arabs do and as long as Jews roam lands in the middle east, discussion is impossible. You can't negotiate with a people that refuse to negotiate. So what course of action are you left with assuming a new Exodus is not an option??
I found some policy makers that agree with you DeuceRings, and they actually dictated our Iraq policy from all appearances. The next Iraq is everywhere they look, I'm not sure if there is something these neocons are not scared of. They must have forgotten to do the math because we would need a draft in order to be prepared for the regime changes they want us to do right now. This title is almost as preposterous as the End of History book. An End to Evil: How to Win the War on Terror Neocons: Don't stop now New book urges Bush to push regime change, keep an eye on US Muslims, and not to create Palestinian state http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0112/dailyUpdate.html?s=entt http://www.why-war.com/commentary/2004/01/anendtoevil.html
Make no mistake about it, Palestines have no problems with seperate states as long as they get Jerusalem. But them again, Jerusalem "rightfully" belongs to Israel right? So when both are claiming that their religion says the land is rightfully theirs then what possible solution is there? Either they're both wrong or they'r eboth right. There's no way to solve this because none will let go of the holy lands in that area. But don't sit here and tell me that Israel will gladly settle for seperate states - resolve the holy lands issue and THEN talk. I keep hearing this crap about "fundies". First of all, they are NOT fundamentalists, they are EXTREMISTS (the people YOU are talking about). Forget that. Why shouldn't fundamentalists, nto extremists, run a country with their religious beliefs? When our religion INCLUDES views of how politics should be run, why shouldn't we? Freedom is nice and dandy, but it's not what we promote. You have the freedom to be in another country, but you live in THEIR house you live by THEIR rules. Isn't this how it's done everywhere in the world? As for permission entering Saudi, how oculd you blame them? The crime rate is so high in the States, they have to be careful who they let into the country. I'm stating facts here - crime rates are unbelievable in the States, especially when compared with Saudi, so they have to have some control over who comes and goes. About Mecca, you don't need to see it if you're not Muslim. Mecca is for worship, it's not a tourist attraction. It's for people who believe and want to go there and complete the ultimate worship. Watch your words. I don't consider those priests in the news to be the example of all Christians. So don't consider Muslim terrorists as the norm. No leader of any country launched an attack on the States. Osama Bin Laden is just some guy without a nationality. He doesn't represent a country or a religion.
Woofer, I guess you disagree with the neocons and advocate continuing the policy of the last 30 years which was not working. What is your alternative then if you do not agree with trying to force these autocratic regimes to change? As far as neocons "dictating our policy," get over the conspiracy theories and start recognizing that maybe they had the best ideas after 9/11. Maybe the leftists whose response to 9/11 can be summed up with the phrase "the US is a terrorist nation also" weren't much help to our government whose job is to protect American lives.
The daily wars that occur within our thoughts and within our families have everything to do with the wars fought between peoples and nations throughout the world. The conviction that we know the truth and that those who do not share our beliefs are wrong has caused a lot of harm. When we believe something to be the absolute truth, we have become caught in our own views.
Just because you lived in Saudi Arabia for 15 years doesn't make your opinion any more of a fact. As for you telling me that you need special government permission to enter the country, Well we here in the United States are taking Finger prints and Pics of every body not included in those select european countries. Its for the countries own protection. People from all over the world come to Saudi for Hajj. So its not like No one enters, Also many people enter for tourism. Albeit they dont get anywhere near the holy cities. So saying that America can ID anyone before coming into a country and when Saudi does the same its wrong, is just Hypocracy on your behalf. You cant enter Mecca or Medina without being a Muslim, because of the fact that if they did others in, it would disrupt the near perfect Islamic City. It would bring in Music, p*rn, gambling etc etc, which is already spreading in the cities with the more corrupt people, and with Muslims sneaking in Non Muslims, or Non Muslims changins their names to enter the city. Also, both the holy mosques are open, and free for all muslims to enter. Muslims know the ettiqutes and responisibilites of being in these holy places, and leaving these open to any non muslim would eventually ruin the whole sacredness of the place. If I was praying in Mecca, for example, and a non Muslim comes in and starts praying his own way, it would affect my prayers, just another reason to have checkpoints before entering the country. Again you are making numbers and facts up. You say that most of the Muslims that speak about and support their religion haven't seen what goes on in these Countries, Well Most Muslims go for Hajj(pilgrimage) to Mecca once a year, and if thats not first hand experiance then I dont know what is. I really doubt what you experianced was first hand though. I have lived 7 years of my life in Saudi, and I go to many other Middle eastern Countries every summer break, So just as you do, I also have the first hand experiance, But unlike most other Americans living there, I did not live in a compound secluded from the main city, or in a City built for Americans (dahran, rastanura etc etc) I lived in the main parts of Riyadh, Jeddah, and Al Khobar, lived side by side with many Arabs. Studied in both American, Indian, and Arab schools. So I can say, I have seen what goes on in most of the different parts of Saudi cities. I get the same treatment as any other American/Foreigners at the Airports. And Im Muslim, so dont think that it is just you, or all the Americans. Its just another check. So there you have it.....
Exactly as I've said. Arabs will not tolerate the presence of Jews in the ME, just so they can go back to what they do best: fighting amongst themselves. The "Palestinian" state question is nothing more than pestle against which the Arabs can grind the Jews on the mortar of world opinion, which if you pay any attention to what's going on these days, is becoming perversely anti-semitic.
Originally posted by Sane I keep hearing this crap about "fundies". First of all, they are NOT fundamentalists, they are EXTREMISTS (the people YOU are talking about). Forget that. Why shouldn't fundamentalists, nto extremists, run a country with their religious beliefs? When our religion INCLUDES views of how politics should be run, why shouldn't we? Because it's horrible, that's why. Religious states are failures as governments, and are right up there with communist states and dictatorships leading the world in human rights atrocities. Look at the governing bodies of Iran and the Taliban, the clerics of Saudi, hell, look at Syria and Egypt and the rest while you're at it. And you ask why not? Freedom is nice and dandy, but it's not what we promote. Duly noted. Watch your words. I don't consider those priests in the news to be the example of all Christians. So don't consider Muslim terrorists as the norm. I think this needs to be discussed further. There is a huge, huge muslim population in the world, well over a billion. Or is it more than two billion now? Regardless, it would be silly to say that they all are terrorists or share terrorist views. But there's no question that there's a much higher percentage of extremists in the muslim religion than any other. I don't think any other religion can claim to have the number of militants actively fighting, plotting, and murdering as Islam. The hundreds and possibly thousands of muslims out there who have a deep desire to kill themselves by blowing themselves up and killing as many other innocent civilians as possibe with them may only make a tiny percentage of the muslim population, but that percentage counts for a lot. Saying they're not the norm doesn't cut it for me. There is a religious culture that is responsible for raising generations children with this absolutley monstrous mentality. It doesn't cut it to just keep blaming everyone else, the Israelis, the Americans, the Russians, the Indians. At some point responsibility must be taken and accepted. I don't see that happening. I'm tired of moderate muslims attacking/blaming other groups rather than condemning the unthinkably horrible actions of their fellow muslims. If you're such a majority, think what you could do by banding together and condemning the minority extremists with voices a billion strong! But no, you essentially defend them by putting a higher priority on blaming everyone else in the name of defending all Islam, reagardlous what monstrous and murderous form it may take. I don't find the teachings of Islam, the actual writings of the holy book to be more violent than the bible, for instance. I think that the extremist muslim culture is due to a number of social and economic factors, as well as political. Not to mention a number of US foreign policy blunders too numerous to mention here. No matter what, we all as individuals and groups must accept responsibility for our own actions.
A religous theocracy and secular democracy DO NOT MIX. Pick your poison. Each has their downside; they are ruled by MAN!
The fact that you think that Arabs will not tolerate Jews in the Middle East is laughable. Jews have inhabited the middle east for over a thousand years. When they along with muslims were expelled from Europe and Spain in the 1400-1500, they lived peacefully under the Muslim Ottoman rule. They only had to pay an extra very small tax to the government. Anti-semetic world? Are you kidding me? The Jewish groups and Israeli lobby groups are some of the strongest in the world. Israel as a state recieves billions of dollars annually as well as preferred status in every trading regard and all of our most up to date technology. People like you can call Palestinians "Animals" like you have in the past without so much as a complaint here on the BBS, yet if anyone says anything against Israeli apartheid policies then they are Anti-semetic. To say that jews are discriminated against in this country is laughable. They make up less than 3% of the population yet constitute over 20% of congress and made up about 80% of Clinton's cabinet. I think that is MORE than adequate representation and 'sensitivity' to Jewish issues.
You consider a tax just because they were Jews to be reasonable? Do you know the elaborate rules that they lived under that made them a slight step above pond scum? link Wow, that sounds really tolerant to me! Those wonderful Muslims ALLOWED the Christians and Jews to live amongst them, being the vermin infidels they were. Check out what H.E.W. Young, British Vice Consul in Mosul, wrote in 1909: Tolerant and peaceful religion my foot.
Oh, I'm sorry. For a second I thought you were giving a description of of Palestinians are treated in Israel. Then I remembered that there is a wall keeping them "where they should be". Oh and they have a curfew as well and entire cities are placed on a curfew in which they can leave one or two hours a week or they will be shot dead. I refute the data in your article and will find info to prove otherwise. The irony of it is that many of those Jews came back to the middle east because they were THROWN out of Europe during times like the Spanish Inquisition. Those damn intolerant Christians! Tolerant and peaceful religion my foot! I have no desire to defend middle eastern rulers who I consider to be corrupt fools, but I just like to point out the hyposcrisy of Bammaslammed's words and point out that he is a bigot.
Sure.......right. Uh-huh. I'm a bigot. You don't see Christians, Hindus or Buddhists strapping explosives to their bodies and killing people just because they are.....Jews. Mind you, I acknowledge the horrors of the Spanish Inquisition, but at least Christians no longer harbor such attitudes toward Jews. Muslims on the other hand, have always hated them and still hate them. I can't believe you consider an infidel tax to be reasonable and don't bother trying to refute what I've told you, because you can't. Peaceful and tolerant religion my foot. What the hell do you expect the Israelis to do? Just let the damned "Palestinian" animals run around and blow themselves up in every single Israeli cafe and bus stop? Yeah, I wouldn't put a wall around those folks. Just allow them their freedom to run about and kill merrily at will, as they are wont to do. Anyone who straps explosives to their chest to kill as many innocents as possible because they don't have a bull**** "homeland" regardless of their ancestry or religion is a homicidal animal. You, sir, are ignorant and have been drinking too much of that Islam is a peaceful and tolerant religion kool-aid. My advice to you: wise up.
Well from a simple number of kills standpoint, Israelis have killed over 4 times as many Palestinians since the uprising began. I personally don't see much difference between shooting a missle into a crowded building as walking into a bus strapped with explosives. And by the way, Palestinians have a high Christian population which backs the Palestinian cause and has participated in suicide attacks as well. Must be those damn Christians that are not peaceful either!! Anytime you slowly and methodically force a diaspora unto a population, they will resist by any means necessary. You seem to just be more into some apocolyptic idea in which Muslims are evil and you must fight them as some evangelical garbage you probably believe in. I prefer to have my country use its funds and influence to increase its economic strength and worldwide reputation, which Israeli support does neither accept for appease Jewish Lobbies and Evangelical Christians and other doomsday fools.
Number one, you have serious issues with Jews. That's the umpteenth time you've mentioned the "Jewish Lobby." But's the par for the course with you, isn't it? You didn't answer my earlier statement about that "reasonable" tax for people who were not Muslims to continue to enjoy the priviledge of living amongst their Muslim oppressors without any rights. Just because you call yourself a boxer, it doesn't mean you can strap on the gloves and get in the ring. Any Christian who harbors the heart-hardened hatred for anyone Jewish, willingly straps explosives upon themselves to kill innocents and/or supports such activity is not a Christian. A real Christian could never do such things, but a real Muslim, on the other had if you read the Koran, can do whatever to unbelievers since Allah hates everyone but Muslims (and yes, your angry demon of a God said so in the Koran). The Israelis have tried peace with the Arabs and it hasn't worked. For 50+ years the Arabs have conspired to destroy Israel and rape and kill its inhabitants because to them: A. they are infidels B. they are squatters. If we withdrew our support, that's exactly what would happen and don't even lie and say that it wouldn't. Just listen to the mainstream rhetoric of the editorial pages, mosques and the Arab on the street and you will see, these people seethe with hatred for the Jews, as do you. You're not serious, are you? So we would do this by abandoning a friend of our nation to the wolves of Islam, which would tear Israel to ribbons and promulgate another Holocaust upon the Jews? Just for some money and a B.S. reputation, we would let the Muslims kill every Jew and take the their land for their own. You are the bigot here who has no problem with that. As for Christianity's sins, I know better than most the history of the Spanish Inquisition and it was wrong, plain and simple. The Church did horrific things in the name of God to the Indians and to the Jews. But you don't see that sort of thing happening. But in the Muslim world, there is nothing but war and violence as the Muslims march to the orders of a bloodthirsty, angry Deity from the pages of his Koran who sees them only as servile implements to use in his unholy service. Arabs need to return to their lands, which is 90 percent of the damned land over there, where they belong. Israel belongs to Jews and will always belong to the Jews. I just wish your little Arab buddies would pick another fight with the Hebrew nation and get another ass-kicking like the other four or five wars.
Its amazing how different people think. Here is my opinion on all of this. If I am understanding correct it was allright for all the christian countries to colonize other countries and just establish slave kingdoms there. THis was done way back long time ago. But one area hasn't bent over and taken it up the butt hole like most others, and that is the Middle East. They are still Fighting for their rights. Its an after effect of England invading the ottoman empire, and into palestinian territory. Ofcourse any man/woman who has a pair will stand up for his or her country no matter what the means are. IF in this day and age it means strapping a bomb to yourself to coutner a large missle, well thats how it is going to be. Im not saying that this is Islamic in any way. Saying that would be like saying it is Jewish to enclose people in a big wall and shoot missles at their house. Well its not, and people need to understand that. I dont see how it wasn't true " christians" who did the spanish inquisition, or colonized the new countries, but it is 'TRUE" Muslims who fly planes into buildings and suicide bomb themselves. The media that you read/get your info from is just as biased as the media that Middle Eastern countries get. You go on and on about how It is ISLAMIC to kill Jews or Christians, but it is so unchristlike when priests have sex with little boys. Hypocracy, yes. Especially when you skew the religion of another and still try to make yours look dandy. Well, Suicide bombing is as Islamic as Child Molestation is Christlike. See how harsh that comes out to be. Not exactly how you want your religion to be displayed now is it. Well neither do Muslims. We are just Human beings just like every one of you.
bamaslammer, You live in someone's house, you pay rent. You offer a service, you recieve a fee. The Jews lived in muslim land and were charged for it, I don't see why that's a big deal. As for your article, please, next time mention the source. Everyone just hover your mouse over te link, and read the source of the website. Nolen, Religious states are failures as governments - What leads you to this conclusion? Do you consider the U.S. a success? I certainly don't. We believe in our religion, and if our religion tells us to conduct politics in a certain way, we will do that, and regardless of results, will wait to be rewarded for doing the best we could in fullfilling God's wishes. I certainly don't consider the U.A.E., Qatar, Bahrain, Kuwait, Oman, and Indonesia failures. What has Saudi Arabia - the ACTUAL GOVERNMENT - ever done that can be considered terrorist or wrong? I won't discuss Iran as I'm sunni, and Iranians are 99% Shi'ite, and they differ in many ways from what I practice. Needless to say, Iran has been far from a good representive of Islam in the recent past. However, I'll give them credit in that they have not been linked to a single terrorist activity in the past 32 years, and hundreds of years before that. I believe the embassy situation is the only thing that can be pinned on them, am I correct? Nolen, your problem is that you're blaming the source. You think that just because people claim to do things in the name of Islam that their acts are in fact justified in Islamic law. You couldn't be further from the truth with this asumption. Like I said, Osama Bin Laden is an INDIVIDUAL, with NO nationality mind you, who conducts his own personal agenda and CLAIMS that it's in the name of Islam. Why is Islam responsible for his actions? Islam does not support the killing of innocent people (9/11) and absolutely does not support opprresive rule. The actions of these minority groups do not reflect what's written in Islam, they just reflect how the acting person interprets the Qura'an. When Israel kills thousands of children in Palestine using all kinds of weapons, it's just fine, but if someone straps a bomb to their chest and kills the same class of people, it's not? At best, you can question this guy's intelligence or morals, but both acts are equally WRONG. I want to repeat this one more time: Palestine is as willing to live in a seperate state as Israel. However, like Israel, they want Jerusalem. None of these two countries will let up unless they get what is, supposedly, rightfully theirs. You're absolutely correct. Al Qae'da should accept responsibility for 9'11, and Saddam Hussein should accept responsibility for *insert the reason for U.S. war on Iraq here*. But to blame it on Islam is absolutely ludicrous. it's no secret that Saddam and Bin Laden have a minority following in the Middle East and among Muslims. But it's only natural since these guys have been standing up to the "2 evils" in the world - U.S. and Israel that they'll gather some support from people who support the Palestinian cause. The source of all of today's problems stem to one thing: The U.S. hasn't seperated itself from Israel and continues to support them staunchly. Until this changes, which it surely won't, you can't expect the Arab world to sit back and watch happily. Iraq SUPPOSEDLY has weapons of mass destruction, which have not been found yet by the way, but while Israel slowly take over every piece of holy land in the Middle East you sit back and just watch? Israel INVADED Palestine. How's that different from when Iraq INVADED Kuwait exactly?
