1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

Stimulating Murder

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by basso, Jul 9, 2011.

  1. Red Chocolate

    Red Chocolate Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2001
    Messages:
    1,576
    Likes Received:
    309
    lol @ the brainwashing of Northside Storm. Well done by whomever is responsible.

    Still eager to hear your thoughts on why disarmed populations tend to get killed off far more so than those who are armed.
     
    1 person likes this.
  2. basso

    basso Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    33,370
    Likes Received:
    9,296
    It's by design, and the same tactic (pivot to a debate about gun control) congressional dems have used to try to deflect attention from the actual events and coverup. It may work in the short term, particularly with compliant major media like the times & post; but the story's too big to go away, and the delay may only serve to push the investigation into the limelight just in time to make it a serious issue during the campaign.
     
  3. pgabriel

    pgabriel Educated Negro

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2002
    Messages:
    43,785
    Likes Received:
    3,705
    i'm not debating gun control, i'm debating your stupid allegations. i'm sorry, but when doing an investigation, don't you have to gather evidence, like actually watching a crime happen, tracking it several times to bring the case to court?

    so these agents allowed the guns to go through, how is that different from any investigation watching the transactions of illegal goods?
     
  4. Northside Storm

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2007
    Messages:
    11,262
    Likes Received:
    450
    Yeah, like how the Interahamwe were armed during the Rwandan Genocide? Thanks to lax gun control by the UN Security Forces, Hutu militias went and killed 800,000 people. General Dalliere called it one of the greatest moral failures of all time. He f**king knew where the Hutus were hiding guns, but thanks to the lack of teeth of the UN mandate, could not effectively control their distribution. 800,000 deaths resulted.

    In this case, they f***king even faced a massively well-armed group, since the RPF Tutsi rebels were there already (this was a raging civil war), but that only caused the Interahamwe to kill even faster.

    <iframe width="560" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/M3NN_LGkhzk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

    How are the high rates of gun ownership doing for Pakistanis, Afghans and Iraqis who are mowed down by NATO forces?

    How are high rates of gun ownership working for Yemenis who can't even get one oppressive tyrant (Saleh) out of power?

    How did high rates of gun ownership work out for ethnic Muslims in Serbia in the 90s?

    Look, the United States has the highest rate of gun ownership by far. It is also the country with the least threatening implications (federal government turning on its' people etc., reasonable crime rate). To discuss limitations on that is not unreasonable. And you can still keep enough s*** so that, if someone takes over the US Army and wants to kill you, you can make a spectacular last stand before they shoot you through and through.
     
  5. Bandwagoner

    Bandwagoner Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2006
    Messages:
    27,105
    Likes Received:
    3,757
    Thank you for giving me an example of how crappy my life could have been and how blessed I am.
     
  6. Northside Storm

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2007
    Messages:
    11,262
    Likes Received:
    450
    Also, if you want to protect against genocide, and balance governmental powers, why don't you apply overwhelming political pressure on reducing the Army/clipping the excesses of the NSA/CIA instead of arming yourselves with peashooters?

    Of course, I guess you believe the political process doesn't work. and somehow were taught that guns make everything cooler. still, how does a .50 cal protect you from law enforcement anymore than action to reduce the powers of said law enforcement agency?

    I don't call that brainwashing however. I have thought through my positions rationally and with a rigorous framework. I only hope you have done the same before deriding anybody else and their thinking patterns.
     
  7. basso

    basso Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    33,370
    Likes Received:
    9,296
    here's a useful chronology, complete with clarifying terminology. the original has many useful links to support docs:

    --
    the following is a brief timeline of events along with a clarification of commonly-used terms by those of us who regularly report these mind-boggling events.

    March 24, 2009--The Obama Administration announces its U.S.-Mexico Border Policy along with its intent to conduct a sting operation by running guns to Mexico, tracing where the guns wind up, and then capturing and prosecuting the criminals who use those guns to perpetrate violence against Mexican citizens and U.S. citizens in their drug smuggling activity. The program, which had been started under the Bush Administration in 2004, with public funding, was kicked up into high gear, with stimulus funds from taxpayers, in 2009.

    This operation was known as 'Project Gunrunner' and was made fully public at the outset. There is no evidence that the original sting operation was illegal or went awry of the law.

    December 28, 2010--The first report was issued indicating that Project Gunrunner had gone terribly awry and had morphed into something entirely different, involving 'walking' guns into Mexico by ATF agents who made straw purchases of firearms at gun stores in Arizona. Those firearms were used in the murder of U.S. Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry.

    The illegal and scandalous shift in the Project Gunrunner operation was then dubbed as 'Project Gunwalker.' The term 'Operation Fast and Furious' refers to both aspects of the operation, including both Gunrunner and Gunwalker.

    January 5, 2011--ATF whistleblowers--agents who were part of the operation from the start but strenuously objected to its illegal components--confirmed that the agency walked guns into Mexico in order to pad statistics on the common mantra that 'U.S. guns are arming the Mexican drug cartels.' The Administration would use these phony statistics to make a case for new gun control measures in the U.S., based in part upon the number of guns that government agents deliberately walked across the border. Roughly 1800 guns were sent to Mexican criminals.

    January 7, 2011--A trusted source close to the White House confirms that the highest levels of government, including the White House itself, is 'in the loop' on the illegal scheme and is now calling the shots.



    Continue reading on Examiner.com ATF gun smuggling timeline: a clarification of terms - National Conservative | Examiner.com http://www.examiner.com/conservativ...meline-a-clarification-of-terms#ixzz1RqF4DbeQ
     
  8. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2003
    Messages:
    61,831
    Likes Received:
    41,304
    lol, basso complaining about diversion and distraction is like Death Panel Republicans complaining about scare tactics in their attempts to gut medicare, or Paul Ryan tossing back $350 bottles of pinot noir with lobbyists while blathering nonsensicaly about belt-tightening and discipline.

    not enough lollerskates in the world for you 3.
     
  9. Commodore

    Commodore Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2007
    Messages:
    33,569
    Likes Received:
    17,546
    <iframe width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/-PNhYk9NuNc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
     
  10. pgabriel

    pgabriel Educated Negro

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2002
    Messages:
    43,785
    Likes Received:
    3,705
    Gun Dealers Required to Report Purchases of Guns that Maybe Used by Mexican Cartels

    edit:
     
  11. basso

    basso Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    33,370
    Likes Received:
    9,296
    gun control conspiracy.

    --
    A Washington Times editorial notes that Operation Fast and Furious was “too fast, too furious,” as the gunrunning scandal continues to widen.

    It was bad enough that more than a half-dozen director-level law enforcement officials and an unknown number of supervisors and managers acquiesced to a plot that armed cartels with more than 2,000 weapons in ATF’s Phoenix Field Operations area. But saying that a combination of groupthink, stupidity, and institutional inertia is to blame for this fiasco is giving dozens of federal law enforcement officers across multiple agencies the benefit of the doubt that they are merely criminally incompetent.

    The increasingly more plausible motivation: political appointees of the current administration concocted a scheme to destabilize a friendly government to restore the flagging anti-gun movement.

    That scenario would have seemed paranoid just weeks ago, but new evidence appearing almost daily indicates that the “Fast and Furious” scandal based in Arizona may be just one part of a much wider campaign by multiple government agencies acting well beyond the law.

    Recent developments indicate that in addition to Fast and Furious in Arizona, another gunrunning operation was headquartered in ATF’s Tampa Field Operations area. It allowed roughly 1,000 firearms to be smuggled to the ultra-violent MS-13 gang in Honduras.

    Evidence also suggests that similar multi-agency programs exist in both the Houston and Dallas Field Operations areas covering all of Texas and Oklahoma.

    Taken together, this suggests that we are not dealing with an isolated incident, but an ambitious and insidious attempt by the highest levels of a rogue government to reshape our world by any means necessary.

    Katie Pavlich broke the story yesterday of a ”smoking gun” email between ATF officials: Mark R Chait, assistant director for field operations with the ATF, copied ATF deputy assistant director for field operations on an email to William Newell, the special agent in charge (SAC) of the Phoenix Field Division:

    Bill – Can you see if these guns were all purchased from the same FfL and at one time. We are looking at anecdotal cases to support a letter on long gun multiple sales.

    Chait was asking Newell to use tracing data to support an initiative supported by the administration to require the reporting of multiple rifle sales.

    If that sounds familiar, it should; this week, President Obama pushed an executive order — an end-run around Congress – stating the feds will now require the reporting of multiple rifle sales within a five-day period. That the office of the presidency lacks the constitutional authority to enact such a rule seems irrelevant to this administration, which is certain to see this edict challenged in court if the ATF attempts to enforce it.

    Even more damning: the existence of more emails that confirm these same ATF officials and others were colluding to use the Operation “Fast and Furious” guns that they helped smuggle into Mexico as a pretext for the new reporting regulation.

    Congressman Darrell Issa and Senator Charles Grassley continue to unravel this plot. Along with the emails proving that the ATF was using “walked” guns to justify stricter gun laws, they sent a letter to embattled Attorney General Eric Holder asking the following:

    Is there any other evidence suggesting that ATF of DOJ officials discussed how Operation Fast and Furious could be used to justify additional regulatory authorities for the ATF? IF so, are there any such indications prior to July 14, 2010?
    Rather than collecting additional information on law-abiding gun owners, what steps have you taken to ensure that the ATF is better able to act on the information it already possesses to interdict the flow of firearms to criminals?
    If most of the claims regarding this scandal are substantiated — and developing evidence certainly indicates a high likelihood of that happening — we face a watershed moment in American history.

    Every component of federal law enforcement within the Department of Justice and the Department of Homeland Security — and most likely with the knowledge of the Department of State — undertook a massive operation designed to facilitate the flow of thousands of weapons into the hands of some of the most vicious criminal organizations on Earth. These operations likely took place with the full knowledge of cabinet level officials, and possibly the White House. The weapons “walked” were used to gun down innocent men, women, and children, not to mention the brave police officers and soldiers in each nation trying to wage peace.

    It demands a criminal investigation and the possible RICO prosecution of dozens of federal law enforcement officers, supervisors, senior management, political appointees, and possibly elected officials.

    Our federal law enforcement apparatus became a criminal conspiracy. This was an assault on the democratic rule of law and the very essence of our republic.

    http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/more-gunwalker-emails-suggest-gun-control-conspiracy/?singlepage=true
     
  12. pgabriel

    pgabriel Educated Negro

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2002
    Messages:
    43,785
    Likes Received:
    3,705
    yes, the federal government needed to give the mexican cartels guns to kill each other for gun control politics because there was not enough killing on the border already.
     
  13. basso

    basso Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    33,370
    Likes Received:
    9,296
    how about an FBI investigation? a special prosecutor?

    --
    Gunwalker: Family of Slain Federal Agent Demands Answers
    Posted By Bob Owens On July 19, 2011

    U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents Jaime Zapata and Victor Avila were ambushed by eight cartel members in Mexico in February. Avila survived, Zapata did not.

    One of the guns used in the murder was a Romanian-made semi-automatic AK-pattern pistol called the “Draco,” which is basically an AK-pattern rifle without a shoulder stock and featuring a much shorter barrel. It was traced back to a gun shop in the United States.

    It has been almost six months since his murder, and Jaime Zapata’s family wants answers [1]:

    Five months after U.S. immigration agent Jaime Zapata was shot to death by a Mexican drug cartel, his family is demanding to know whether the weapons were purchased in the United States and smuggled into Mexico [2] under the now-defunct Fast and Furious operation.

    The family complains that U.S. authorities in Washington and Texas have refused to answer crucial questions about the Feb. 15 ambush on a four-lane highway in northern Mexico.

    “What happened with Jaime needs to come out,” the family’s lawyer, Raymond L. Thomas of McAllen, Texas, said in a telephone interview Sunday. “And the likelihood that these were Fast and Furious guns is certainly plausible.”

    The ambush of Zapata and Avila has long been associated with the multi-agency aberration known as “Operation Fast and Furious.” But the Draco pistol used in Zapata’s murder was not part of Operation Fast and Furious, which took place in what the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives has designated the Phoenix Field Operations area [3], which encompasses all of Arizona and New Mexico. The Draco was instead just one of many firearms obtained for the cartels by a trio of gunrunners in the Dallas Field Operations area, from a parallel operation that looks suspiciously like [4] Operation Fast and Furious.

    A third operation named “Operation Castaway” is also coming to the attention of congressional investigators, and a pattern of weapons recovered from the Houston area in southern and central Mexico suggests that a fourth “watch and do nothing” operation existed.

    Just how many “Gunwalker” operations did the ATF, Federal Bureau of Investigation, Drug Enforcement Agency, Department of Justice, Department of Homeland Security, the Internal Revenue Service, and the State Department collude in?

    Was Operation Fast and Furious in Phoenix an isolated incident as the Obama administration and their unserious allies in the mainstream media would like us to believe? Or is it more likely that the federal agencies that are known to have come together for this operation participated in a number of operations in all border states where gun smuggling has been alleged, including the two suspected operations in Texas and Operation Castaway?

    Should investigators be looking for the presence of similar multi-agency operations in the Los Angeles, Denver, Miami, and New Orleans field areas?

    We are nowhere near being able to answer these questions, because the federal agencies involved are attempting to evade questions from the family members of dead law enforcement agents and congressional investigators alike.

    The family of Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry, who was murdered in Arizona by illegals armed with at least two Fast and Furious weapons from the Phoenix operation, wants answers as well. They are considering suing the government [5] to get those answers.

    Senator Charles Grassley and Representative Darrell Issa are trying to pry answers from a recalcitrant Department of Justice, including letters sent to the director of the FBI and the administrator of the DEA seeking “all communications” from eight FBI special agents and six DEA special agents. In addition, they are seeking information about the number of informants in each agency related to “Fast and Furious” defendants, and specific information about suspect Manuel Fabian Celis-Acosta, who is accused of supplying a number of AK-type firearms to the cartels.

    They’re also attempting to discover more about the circumstances surrounding Agent Zapata’s death, in order to get answers for the Zapata family.

    Not so many years ago, New York Times columnist Maureen Dowd asserted that “the moral authority of parents who bury children killed in Iraq is absolute.”

    The sentiment of “absolute moral authority” for anti-war parents of soldiers lost in battle was embraced, amplified, and echoed by the Times, the Washington Post, and the overwhelming majority of print and broadcast media pundits while those parents served as useful political props for the media and progressive politicians. When the left took over both houses of Congress and the White House — and the mother they used as a bludgeon turned out to be a hate-spewing, conspiracy-mongering anti-Semite [6] — the media quietly let the “absolute moral authority“ card slip out of their hand.

    Zapata’s father is a Vietnam combat veteran with two Purple Hearts, and his siblings work in law enforcement. The family isn’t demanding to see the president, or delivering ditch-side sermons to a fawning media. All they want is answers.

    Where is the media to bestow them with absolute moral authority and to champion their cause?

    http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/gunwal...ederal-agent-demands-answers/?singlepage=true
     
  14. pgabriel

    pgabriel Educated Negro

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2002
    Messages:
    43,785
    Likes Received:
    3,705
    the funny thing about this (and no its not funny dude got killed but anyway) is that everybody went out and purchased guns because they thought obama was gonna take away their guns when elected. gun shops in Houston were literally running out of ammo

    of course obama knew politcally that gun control was the last issue on the agenda. he saw what happened to clinton in 93. some obama has not pursued any gun control at all, yet people claim that he allowed these agents to be killed.

    the investigation was to catch guns from the us to mexico. it was an issue before obama was elected. these guys were tracking the guns to make a case. no conspiracy
     
    #94 pgabriel, Jul 19, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2011
  15. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2003
    Messages:
    61,831
    Likes Received:
    41,304
    I think this is the right thread for this:

    [​IMG]
     
  16. basso

    basso Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    33,370
    Likes Received:
    9,296
    you've missed what tis is about. the accusation is that Obama (or Holder) was using this program to pursue gun control by other (indirect) means, and that rather than try to interdict guns being run to mexico, they changed the program to actually "walk" them into to mexico, so they could trace their use there, with the inevitable result that there was a flood a new firepower into an extremely volatile environment, resulting in the deaths of scores of mexicans agents, and two americans.

    the acting head of the ATF says there's a smoking gun memo to this effect. surely, someone outside the justice dept. should be investigating, wouldn't you agree?
     
  17. pgabriel

    pgabriel Educated Negro

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2002
    Messages:
    43,785
    Likes Received:
    3,705
    basso, seriously

    have you been paying attention to what's going on in Mexico. do you really think that they needed to allow guns there to ratchet up the violence? seriuosly, there wasn't enough violence on the border to make a case for gun control, they actually needed to ratchet it up, is that the conspiracy. that's ridiculous.

    what is the memo going to say, 10K murders aren't enough, we need 12k
     
  18. basso

    basso Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    33,370
    Likes Received:
    9,296
    sounds incredible, doesn't it? and yet, that's what happened; the question outstanding is "why?"

    i'd like to know- can't imagine why you wouldn't.
     
  19. mc mark

    mc mark Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 1999
    Messages:
    26,195
    Likes Received:
    471
    BS! You don't care why; just another reason to bash the president
     
    1 person likes this.
  20. basso

    basso Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    33,370
    Likes Received:
    9,296
    it's the president's (or his appointee's) program.
     

Share This Page