we have ATF agents testifying that they were told to stand down when they wanted to intercept weapons going into mexico. we have a border patrol agent who was murdered w/ one of these weapons. we have obama calling it a "serious mistake". how high does this go? would ATF supervisors have carried this out on their own or did the directive come from higher up - justice department/white house? someone ordered these agents to stand down. it doesnt matter if this happened under bush or obama - this is a major story. i have no illusions about basso's motivations, but just b/c he is posting this story does not make it trash. just b/c alex jones is reporting on this story doesnt mean you can dismiss it. i dont know why you and others are so quick to label this some conspiracy theory when it has been all over the news and congress is investigating it. i guess its easier to attack the messenger than actually address the content of what is being said.
the ATF was not selling guns to mexico - they were preventing their agents from stopping the flow of weapons into mexico - and i find the whole affair quite sordid - congress does too, which is why they are holding hearings on the matter. and there are several agents testifying on this issue - not just "criminals and conspiracy nut bloggers".
The story is very real and very unfortunate, the OP, however, is total garbage. This was a recon tactic that is risky, no different than letting drugs flow so you can trace them and gather more info in the hopes of making a larger bust. Sucks that some people died, but this is dangerous work. Using this to paint some kind of picture of Obama-sanctioned and financed murder of federal agents is utterly r****ded. Have you bothered looking into these AJ articles? For starters; the two main assertions of them are absolutely false and/or totally uncorroborated. 1) that the ATF/govt "provided" the weapons and 2) that the tracking of the weapons was "stopped". Seriously, this thread is like a playground for gullible idiots. The freepers trying to use this as an anti-Obama/stimulus talking point (I have yet to see any link between the ARRA and this ATF operation), and the Alex Jones' trying to float some gun control conspiracy theory with zero evidence (other than the word of a Mexican drug lord )... it's a match made in heaven for dumbasses.
i'm sure this guy wouldn't have been killed because the ONLY guns those gangsters could get were from that gun shop. yeah, this has iran contra written all over it.
just go to the ATF website: Recovery Act Information The Southwest Border Initiative — ATF’s Project Gunrunner — $10 million The Administration’s southwest border initiative will reduce cross border drug and weapons trafficking, and the associated high level of violence occurring on the border between the U.S. and Mexico. The primary role of ATF’s Project Gunrunner in support of this initiative is to stem the illegal trafficking of firearms across the border and to reduce the firearms violence occurring on both sides of the border. $10 million in ARRA funding is hiring 37 ATF employees to open, staff (via new hire and relocation of senior personnel,) equip, and operate new Project Gunrunner criminal enforcement teams in McAllen, TX; El Centro, CA; and Las Cruces, NM (which includes a subordinate satellite office in Roswell, NM.). Additionally, these funds support the assignment of two special agents to each of the U.S. consulates in Juarez and Tijuana, Mexico to provide direct support to Mexican officials on firearms-trafficking-related issues. By curtailing the availability of firearms to the Mexican drug cartels, ATF will diminish their ability to export drugs to the U.S. In addition, by removing the guns from the cartel’s lethal resources, ATF will directly affect their ability to operate and concurrently suppress the firearms — related violence that occurs on both sides of the southwest border. http://www.atf.gov/firearms/programs/project-gunrunner/
No kidding. Even if stimulus money paid for this operation, calling it a government financed murder is beyond stupid. This is dangerous work, sometimes people die; it was a gambit taken by the ATF, and this was an unfortunate short-term result. But remember, guns don't kill people, people kill people. Or at least, that's the narrative until it no longer suits our political objectives.
i started this thread on this issue and obama has actually stepped up efforts to try to stem (ha ha stim) the tide of guns from this country to them
the more i read about this, i'm stunned that anyone could possibly defend this. these are impeachable offenses, if not Obama, certainly Holder. the administration, for purely domestic political purposes (gun control) suborned the murder of hundreds of mexican law enforcement personell, as well as two american agents. outrageous. --- Obama Sold, Tracked, Same Guns To Cartels He Hoped To Ban Because They Were Tracked From Cartels Posted by Matthew Knee Saturday, July 9, 2011 at 8:30am In the Spring of 2009, the Obama administration called for the banning of “assault rifles” and .50 BMG “sniper rifles” due to their use in crimes by Mexican drug cartels. Obama dubiously alleged that 90% of these weapons were tracked back to the United States, implying that Americans have an obligation to surrender some of our freedoms to keep these weapons from being smuggled illegally over the border and used in Mexican-on-Mexican violence in Mexico. In this vintage clip, NRA Executive Vice President Wayne LaPierre discusses Obama’s proposals with Glen Beck. Obama backed off these proposals a month later, noting that such a ban would not be politically feasible at this time. In Fall of 2009, the Obama Administration conceived Operation Fast and Furious, in which the ATF sold thousands of advanced weapons to Mexican drug cartels in order to track them once they were used in crimes. This policy perfectly dovetailed with Obama’s gun control arguments. First of all, by selling guns to the cartels that the ATF could definitely trace back to the US (because they were bought from the ATF), the percentage of guns used in Mexican crimes traceable to American guns would increase. ATF supervisors rejoiced at their success when they found that these guns were being used for violence in Mexico. Surveillance video obtained by CBS News shows suspected drug cartel suppliers carrying boxes of weapons to their cars at a Phoenix gun shop. The long boxes shown in the video being loaded in were AK-47-type assault rifles… …Documents show the inevitable result: The guns that ATF let go began showing up at crime scenes in Mexico. And as ATF stood by watching thousands of weapons hit the streets… the Fast and Furious group supervisor noted the escalating Mexican violence. One e-mail noted, “958 killed in March 2010 … most violent month since 2005.” The same e-mail notes: “Our subjects purchased 359 firearms during March alone,” including “numerous Barrett .50 caliber rifles.” Dodson feels that ATF was partly to blame for the escalating violence in Mexico and on the border. “I even asked them if they could see the correlation between the two,” he said. “The more our guys buy, the more violence we’re having down there.” Senior agents including Dodson told CBS News they confronted their supervisors over and over. Their answer, according to Dodson, was, “If you’re going to make an omelette, you’ve got to break some eggs.” There was so much opposition to the gun walking, that an ATF supervisor issued an e-mail noting a “schism” among the agents. “Whether you care or not people of rank and authority at HQ are paying close attention to this case…we are doing what they envisioned…. If you don’t think this is fun you’re in the wrong line of work… Maybe the Maricopa County jail is hiring detention officers and you can get $30,000 … to serve lunch to inmates…” And which guns did the ATF sell to the cartels? AK-47-type assault rifles and Barrett .50 BMG sniper rifles. Exactly the types of guns that Obama hoped to ban due to their use by the cartels. I’m not saying that the Obama Administration intentionally magnified the precise circumstances that they were using to justify their gun control proposals. However, their reckless policy not only had this effect, but provided guns to criminal gangs that were used to murder U.S. Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry, ICE Special Agent Jaime Zapata and about 150 Mexican law enforcement personnel. Those involved in this tragic irony must be punished accordingly. It is vital that the public comes to know who in the administration knew what and when they knew it. Kudos to Congressman Issa for bringing this deadly scandal into the light. Shame on the MSM for not making this a top story.
Not even close. Any proof of this, Mr. Jones? Suborned: Bribe or otherwise induce (someone) to commit an unlawful act such as perjury.
Hello? Did the SS drop bombs on the Jews? The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subject races to possess arms. History shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by so doing. Adolf Hitler (April 1942) If the government/military/etc. wanted to blow up large #s of us, they could do so at any point. The question is why would they want to disarm us. Furthermore, anything your government tries to gradually take away from you tends to be worth having. People will steal your property eventually if they are desperate and armed while you are not. I also fail to see how a gun is dangerous to family members if it is properly handled and kept out of the reach of children.
Letting guns go through and actually purchasing them with tax dollars for sale to cartels are two different things. I keep reading different reports about which actually happened. Also, Fast and Furious was a part of the larger Project Gunrunner effort. I keep hearing the two used interchangeably. Sounds like a really dumb plan to me, and it obviously got people killed on both sides of the border. People need to be fired. Arming cartels, even for tracking purposes, is insane. And if it was used as a pretense for gun control, that's even worse.
False. Are you lying or stupid? No evidence that it was used at Waco, they had them but no agents were killed with one. So basically you have not shown a murder or violent crime with one. But you single it out specifically as a problem for our society.
I didn't read the rest of your post nor the rest of the thread because, you know, "basso thread." But the fact that you think that any of your thread titles has been clever just proves once again that you=Eddie Haskell, only more effete with all your French "bon mots" and your pinky permanently extended from your pretentious glass of whine.
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what's that smell? <iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/iOCrS747L_0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> the stench of cover up: “This Obama Justice Department reminds me of nothing so much as the Nixon Justice Department,” he said. “You have the scent of high-level knowledge of serious wrongdoing and you have the smell of cover-up and I think the stench of cover-up on this gun-running operation is very strong indeed.” Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2011/07/10/h...t-of-scandal-plagued-nixon-doj/#ixzz1Rk4ac0If
Amusing. basso cares about human rights and law? I actually find this case a bit sordid, and morally disgusting, but to make it seem like this is the worst thing ever...please. Those of us who track treaty law/international law know the United States is a habitual breaker. In this case, nominally to pursue a law enforcement action...there's not enough for me to be indignant, because the Obama Admin. was just trying to catch more people. Unless you can show Wikileaks-like internal documents (or allow us more access to those), your other crazy assertions will be just that...crazy assertions. That said, I'm saddened US government action has once again led to many deaths. You'd hope this would be a lesson in the war on drugs, but I guess more people are thinking this is a false flag operation for their cherished Second Amendment Rights...and don't even realize the greater damage their federal government is doing by militarizing the conflict down south just to pursue a broken strategy that doesn't work, is proven wrong, and has sustainable alternatives (like the policy in Portugal). but I have to end with this--- the same guy who defended torture is now trying to accuse the United States of the gravest human rights sins, as if they matter to him. basso, I'll bury up the thread where I gave you the UN conventions that specifically forbade torture, wanna have fun rereading them with your new zeal for law? hilarious how a change in presidency makes the hypocrisy come out
