FB, people on this BBS were calling for Francis's head long before the alleged Superbowl trip. Anyway, great thread. Having a superstar player who's also a genuinely nice guy is a really rare thing in the NBA. The Rockets have one in Francis, and I don't think people will appreciate that until he's gone.
I agree and you are clearly not one of the watered down fans I'm talking about. Steve has had mistakes and that alone makes him human. People here want to trade him for having a 16pts 5 and 5 season...last I checked, that's not that bad. He's adjusting his game for the sake of the team. It's hard to read garbage about OUR players.
Few people here question Francis' talent. The issue is whether he is selfish. It really depends on how you define selfish. The problem with evaluating Francis is that it's hard to pin it down. He seems to be selfless in some things and selfish in others. If you love him, you can list all those sacrifices as Khan did. And they are valid points. If you hate him, you can list all the selfish acts he has done. And they are valid too. My take is that Francis is not selfish in the sense that he deliberately does things that benefit himself to the detriment of the team (if that's what selfishness means). However, he is selfish in the way a 4 years old kid is selfish. He has a hard time seeing the big picture of the world. He thinks letting go of a candy will result in exteme deprivation of his life. He does not know that sharing toys will result in playing more toys than he ever has. Francis' problem, imo, is immaturity. Those who have kids know how hard it is to get them to see the big picture of things. Stevie hasn't grown up yet. The Super Bowl incident just reaffirms what I've been suspecting for a long time. Many people point out how bad the Rockets are without him. That is true, if not for anything, because he is still our best player. That is also true because the best backup he's ever had is a guy with funny hair. Any team that loses their best player will suck, unless you are the Kings. Every team design their game around their best player. Losing that is losing a big chunk of your game. Does that mean he is good enough to lead us to the promised land? Hardly. GATER has a good point that teams like the Grizzlies would also suck if they lost Gasol. But does that mean Gasol is good enough to lead them to win it all? If our goal is to win championship, then we need a leader. The leader of a championship team is usually their best player. Is Francis suitable to fill that role? Do you want a guy with a 4-year-old mentality to lead your team?
I applaude you for a balanced look at the situation when that's the thing many people are lacking. The problem is trying to assign labels to people. Steve is neither saint nor devil. He has aspects of great good, hard work, and sacrifice for your team. He also has aspects of the immaturity that you mentioned in your post. The division that exists on this board is because people look at one action and try and create a label and stuff Steve into that label. Some try and stuff him into league superstar who is beyond question, and others try and stuff him into the selfish egotistical label that bucks authority. I think everyone would be a littles less tense about the situation if they looked at the good points and bad points about Steve and formed whatever opinions they had based on that, but also realize that others can look at the same set of facts and form different opinions based on that evidence. I think everyone is more than welcome to have differing opinions on Steve both approving, and critical, but don't decide one way or the other and shut out everything else. People are rarely one dimensional. They are almost never all good or all bad, always right or always wrong.
Good points, and hard to argue Gator. However, imo, Francis might not be worth as much as Duncan to the Spurs, but its close. Not player wise, team value wise. Dallas, Sac, Minn, and LA would still make it w/o their top dogs. Spurs and rockets wouldnt. my points were just that when people say we should get a 'pass first pg' or trade him for younger, growing players, we should know what kind of DRASTIC impact that would have on our team. Its arguable that he might not a good fit basketball wise, fine. But if u r to trade him, better get REAL good value for him. None of this TJ and Thomas, or Jamison stuff. Teams actually do divise their defensive plans to shut down Steve, not only yao. They double Steve whenver possible. If u get just role players for Steve, thats not good enough. Steve actually makes this whole team go. I'm sure people have noticed, even the ones who dog Steve, when he is on the bench, we really suck....
Watered down fans? I just love all these posts labeling other cc.net members less-than-adequate Rox fans. IMHO, anyone who spends time here is a passionate Rox fan. So stick with the real issue and spare us the ad hominem attacks. I think SF is a very talented player but his recent action really bothered me. If he is truly the Franchise player, he needs to lead by example. What he did last Sunday was inexcusable and if he uses your "Steve has had mistakes and that alone makes him human." to appeal for sympathy, he is getting none from me. I got upset for days after a Rox defeat and if SF can't show us that he cares just as much about this team by sticking to the team schedule, he deserves all the flames from Rox fans, watered down or otherwise.
I knew some people who had no sense of analogy would respond like that. I thought about modifying my last rhetorical question so that I wouldn't be misunderstood. But then I thought it'd be good to see who would bite.
Great thread ... This is what I've been saying for a long time. Francis has not played well, but he has tried and tried to fit in this system. He HAS changed his game for the team. It hasn't worked out well for him, but he has tried to do these things. In return he gets roasted for every bad thing that he does. Pretty soon(maybe already considering the super bowl incident) he is going to give up and stop trying because he gets criticized relentlessly. This year he may not have great game, but he does have heart.
No, actually the problem I had was you only gave one example of immaturity and that's the point of this thread. At least say he complains to the refs or he used to get a lot of techs or something to support your claim.
HeyDude - I guess my indirect point is that I am a Rockets' fan first and foremost. By virtue of being a Rocket, Steve Francis has my support and I'm glad for his successes because they reflect well for the Rockets. But I will honestly and readily admit that were he to be traded, I would probably pay no further attention to him. With the ferocity with which some posters defend Francis, I often wonder if their allegiance is more to the Rockets or to Francis. Should Francis be traded, there will surely be a huge diversity of opinion regarding whether Houston got a fair market value. And just as is the case with all the "I hate Van Gundy" sentiments in threads and posts, that same thing will occur and linger for months, if not years. I personally don't have it in me to keep looking back and expecting a young Olajuwon and a younger Rudy T to walk into the Toyota Center. I've moved on and I'm letting the chips fall where they way. Anyone who has bothered to read my posts knows that I have been consistent since the first day I became a CC/CF member...Francis is a talented athlete who wants to win. But I have always had some severe doubts as to whether his athleticism and desire can overcome his lack of a natural (innate) basketball mind. Winning in the NBA is as much about mental ability and preparedness as it is about athleticism and effort. The difference between good or very good player and great NBA player is this... Every off-season summer, Larry Bird looked objectively at his game and decided what aspect of it was the weakest. That's all he worked on that entire summer. Playing the game all summer and emphasizing only your strengths (athleticism, cross-over moves) will not make one a great basketball player. If Francis were to be traded, I personally would base my feelings on whether the incoming player or players had a decent shot, a solid work ethic, a team orientation and a good basketball mind moreso than how high they jumped, how devastating their cross-over was or their ppg average. And I'd welcome them as Rockets...heck, I even managed to root for Glen Rice while he was here. That's my Old School bias and I'm stickin' with it.
You really want me to list them? I thought many threads had already done that. But well. . . 1. Draft night behavior 2. Constantly driving to the hoop with 4 defenders waiting with no intention to pass (he has reduced that under JVG) 3. Dragging his feet to do thorough check up on his migraine problem 4. Initial reaction towards drafting of Yao before he knew anything about the guy 5. Defying the coach's order to call a timeout and bringing the ball upcourt to take a last second shot 6. Taking on personal challenges against certain PGs, disregarding winning as a team These are just on top of my head in limited time. Other people probably can think of some others. But why? This is not a thread to bash Francis. My lengthy post earlier was just a response to the thread starter on whether Francis was a selfish player. My point was that he's selfish only in the sense that he didn't know better, just like a 4-year-old kid.
Some of these I agree with and some I disagree with. 1. I agree. It was bad. Not unique but bad. 2. Yes this was a problem, but it could also be a credit because as you point out he has shown a willingness to change it. 3. I disagree. There was a date set for the migraine thing and the Mayo Clinic. Steve met the date, and furthermore went through the very difficult task of changing his diet. Prior to the mayo clinic he tried various other doctors and treatments. 4. I disagree. Most of that initial reaction was rumor and speculation. To Steve's credit he never came out publically and complained, and unlike the Sunday incident he handled himself very professionally despite whatever negative feelings he might have had. Furthermore, to Steve's credit he kept enough of an open mind that he was actually calling his teammates telling them it was a good thing to get Yao. He also went out of his way to welcome Yao. 5. I agree 6. I know he's been accused of this, but seldom did I really feel he was doing that. After talking about getting back at the Utah pg's he did but he did it within the confines of the team game. Against Marbury it was always obvious that Marbury was the one who got involved in the personal battle, and Steve would get the win. During the Bibby match up Steve had 13 assists. I don't think that's an example of him doing too much himself because of a personal battle with Bibby.
Please....spare yourself! Just because you spend adequate time on this site doesn't make you a passionate Rocket's fan. Stick to facts!!!?? I thought I was doing that.....there ARE WATERED DOWN fans here at clutchcity.net. I'm not trying to upset anyone, just being truthful. I read mess daily about people here trading players on Mondays and then loving them Wednesday. That's not what REAL fans do.
sjackson0: "I'm a real basketball fan, because....I said so! I label you a watered down fan, because... I stick to the facts! I am being truthful, because...I said so! "
IIRC, he didn't make the first (or first couple of) date to Mayo. He said he didn't want to miss the games. He might be sincere in wanting to contribute. Some people might think that it indicate his "heart." I felt that it's immaturity, failing to see the big picture. Remeber, that was when nobody really knew what was going on with his headache. All sorts of horrible possibility has been suggested. A mature person would make that a priority to solve the problem (for the good of himself and the team) as soons as possble, rather than trying to play a couple more games in a season that was already lost. Fine. I admit that this point is kinda subjective. We can't absoultely prove either way. To me, it's not so much how he did over the whole game, but how he reacted in the next possession after the other guy did something well against him. I didn't mention his little skip steps walking the ball upcourt when we were down by about 10 points with less than 3 min. to go in the game. It's little things like that that make me feel like I am watching a kid playing on the street rather than a professional doing his job. I still stand by my point that he is not a bad player or a bad person. But he is too immature to be a leader. The Super Bowl thing just confirms that.
Just curious, if one is not passionate about Rox, why would he spend countless hours here on this board? I'd like to know what criteria you use to conclude that some of us are watered down fans. Yes, let's stick to facts. The only fact we need to address regarding Sunday's event is that SF chose to skip the team flight in order to attend to some other business. I find that behavior unacceptable from our franchise player, but you somehow seemed to think that SF's irresponsible action is justifiable because "he is human". You should try to pull that with your boss sometimes when you are no longer interested in keeping your job. In the meantime, most of us are here to talk about Rox. Let's just leave it at that.
