First off, you're welcome for the extra stats SmeggySmeg. Great topic. Ah, what the heck I'm still an insomniac and I have most of the proper stats scribbled down from yesterday on a piece of paper that's just being used as a coaster for my beer, so . . . I have the stats for total field goals attempted (fga) and 3 pointers attempted (3pa) right here . . . Cassell: fga (Hou): 17.0 3pa (Hou): 1.0 fga (season): 14.4 3pa (season): 1.1 Van Exel: fga (Hou): 21.8 3pa (Hou): 5.0 fga (season): 15.4 3pa (season): 5.1 Blaylock: fga (Hou): 13.0 3pa (Hou): 4.0 fga (season): 11.4 3pa (season): 4.1 Anderson: fga (Hou): 16.0 3pa (Hou): 1.0 fga (season): 12.0 3pa (season): 2.7 Payton: fga (Hou): 28.3 3pa (Hou): 5.5 fga (season): 20.3 3pa (season): 6.3 Brandon: fga (Hou): 17.3 3pa (Hou): 1.7 fga (season): 14.7 3pa (season): 1.9 Bibby: fga (Hou): 18.3 3pa (Hou): 3.3 fga (season): 12.6 3pa (season): 2.6 Stockton: fga (Hou): 12.0 3pa (Hou): 1.8 fga (season): 8.8 3pa (season): 1.5 Marbury: fga (Hou): 19.5 3pa (Hou): 1.5 fga (season): 17.8 3pa (season): 3.1 Kidd: fga (Hou): 14.0 3pa (Hou): 2.5 fga (season): 12.8 3pa (season): 2.5 Now, just as you suspected, the opposing PGs were shooting more attempts against Francis. What disturbs me is the fact that the differences in 3pa isn't that much (in fact, in a few cases there are less 3pa vs. Houston than vs. the rest of the league). This tells me that Francis did not do a good job of keeping his man from driving to the basket. I know, I know, stats don't tell the whole story, but break out those video tapes of Rockets games that you recorded this year and see for yourself. Franchise has a lot of work to do on D for next year. He has the raw ability to be a good defender, now he just has to develop it. Oh, and another thing . . . TANGENT ALERT! TANGENT ALERT! IMHO I really hate the argument that because a player puts so much effort into offense, that he is allowed to slack off on D a little. This isn't a pick-up game at the local playground; this is professional basketball, and you should expect every player on the floor to put 100% effort on both sides of the floor, especially if you consider that player your Franchise. END TANGENT ALERT Now, I better stop posting these stats, lest my wife find out that I'm "spanking" someone else on the net ------------------
I just want to say WOO HOO 1. For a Smeg thread to get to two pages, and 2. For Launch pad for some more sensational Stats. Also i agree Launch, if anyone believes just cause you play great offense excuses you from playing Defense, then stop watching basketball and stick to Gridiron, where UNLIKE basketball, players only have to play offense or defense (or if you a lucky enough kick the pig skin), but fortunately in basketball you have to do both, especially if you are the team's future and leader. Smeg of Defense and Seriousness PS Launch try counting sheep, or go for a late night jog or bring some work home or read DoD post, any of these work for me, or if in doubt get blind drunk and pass out. ------------------ Stuff BBS, the Rockets and you guys It's all Clippers these days, come join the bandwagon and visit http://www.ClippersCity.net
although steve still could improve on his D the rockets usually play off of opposing team p.guards to double down and when steve,cuttino,and norris start getting steals playing off there men it leads to fast breaks and i think this year you might see it happen more often. HOPEFULLY! or other p.guards will continue to burn us as well as there big men and a mediocre season. ------------------
What's the replys record, i think i can get with this thread. Am i stretching it to think we can get this to 100, only 57 more. Now that would be a joke. Come on, we need some more people who think steve should just play offense and no Defense and keep the Rockets below 30 wins. Smeg of Defense and Seriousness ------------------ Stuff BBS, the Rockets and you guys It's all Clippers these days, come join the bandwagon and visit http://www.ClippersCity.net
For those you were arguing it doesn't matter how much Steve's opponent scores as long as the Rockets win, i did a little more research. Rockets V Bucks (Cassell) 0 and 2 Nugs (Van Exel) 2 and 2 Warriors (Blaylock) 2 and 1 Celtics (Anderson) 1 and 1 Twolves (Brandon) 0 and 4 Sonics (Payton) 1 and 3 Grizzlies (Bibby) 2 and 1 Jazz (Stockton) 1 and 3 Nets (Marbury) 1 and 1 Suns (Kidd) 2 and 2 Grand Total against the 10 teams 12 WINS and 21 LOOSES Respond away Smeg of Defense ------------------ Stuff BBS, the Rockets and you guys It's all Clippers these days, come join the bandwagon and visit http://www.ClippersCity.net
Ouch! That is pretty horrible. His defense does certainly hurt the team somewhat. However, even these numbers can be questioned some what. Why? Of those teams, our record against those that didnt make the playoffs (Nets, Grizzlies, Celtics, Warriors and Nuggets) is 8-6. Still not too spectacular, but a winning percentage of about 57% nonetheless. Against the teams that did make the playoffs (Suns, Jazz, SOnics, TWolves, Bucks) record was 4-13, a robust 23.5% winning percentage. I am tired of making excuses for Steve. His defense needs a LOT of work. Still, though, the more experienced, established point guards on the better teams took it to him and still made sure their team won. Also, most of those points are also good defenders themselves, making Steve concetrate more on offnese and less on defense. I know I keep throwing things out there, but for you insomniacs, it would be interesting to see the minutes played per game agains the above playoff teams versus the non playoff teams listed. Just some thoughts ------------------ When I die I want to go peacefully like my grandfather. Not screaming like the passengers in the back seat!
Steve Francis' defense was below average this year. He's a rookie, what were you expecting? I mean, he went from defending the 5'8" point guard from the Southwestern Arkansas school for Welding and Motor Repair to being asked to defend Gary Payton without any help defense because one of our interior players couldn't breathe and the other doesn't care. Give him time, he's still gonna get torched this year too, the point is that he's got the tools to be a great defender. He's quick, aggressive and has good instincts. He merely needs time to develop them. In my opinion. ------------------ Who would've thought Don Nelson would pass up Olumide Oyedeji not once, not twice, but thrice?
If Steve scores 50 points a game, then he doesnt have to play D. ------------------ No signature for you!
I agree with TheFreak more or less. Others wanted to light him up. What needs to be noticed in this fact is that many PG's in their attempt to torch Steve jacked up as many shots as they had points. I remember a few of the games, the ones against Payton in particular, where Steve scored just as many points as Payton, like 25 or something, but Payton took 25 shots to get that point total where Steve only took 15. In their attempt to torch him, they are taking all the shots and leaving their teammates on the outside a lot of the time. IMO let them score 25 or 30 if it takes the same amount of shots to get it. That means a lower field goal percentage for them which wins games for us. And I just noticed that this aspect was covered by LaunchPad already. Great job LaunchPad...you proved my point before I even made it. ------------------ He who stands for nothing will fall for anything. [This message has been edited by Gideon (edited July 06, 2000).]
Or 40 and 10 assists. Or 30 points and 15 assists and 10 rebounds. Any less and Steve is required to play defense. ------------------ No signature for you!
"That means a lower field goal percentage for them which wins games for us." Actually, read back a little farther, Gideon, I already did a run-down of opposing PG FG% and it wasn't pretty. Yes, they were shooting more, but they were also shooting better (i.e. much better FG% for everyone except Kidd and Payton (note: Payton's FG% vs the Rockets was only .006 below his season average)). So, were they playing harder to make the rookie phenom look bad? Probably. Did they succeed in making him look bad (at least on the defensive end)? Unfortunately ------------------
Well, seeing as how Stevie's season averages were 18.0 ppg, 5.3 rpg, and 6.6 apg, I guess he is still required to play D ------------------
Did we get a breakdown of minutes that Francis was guarding the opposing point versus Drew, Norris, Mobley or Anderson? How about an independent audit that Francis actually played in those games and wasn't out with an injury or left with an injury? What is the qualifying MPGs? How many of those games were the 2nd game of a back-to-back versus a well-rested opponent? How about 3rd game in 4 nights versus a well-rested opponent? How many of those games was Francis playing hurt? Were any of these overtime games in which Francis was fouled-out? How many points were scored on a defense switch in which someone else was guarding the point because Francis did the RIGHT thing defensively? Did we forget about the fact that we were tanking so we could get Collier for the 9th pick in the draft? Come on, folks... ------------------
No. Sorry, I don't mind spending 30 min compiling game stats from nba.com, but I really don't think it's worth it to review hours and hours of game tape just to convince you of something that you can see with your own eyes by watching any one of the games. Steve is not a good defender. Actually, at least in my stats, I did eliminate the games that Francis or the opposing PG missed due to injuries. Francis and the opposing PG played 30+ minutes in all of the games I included. The old "2nd game of a back-to-back" or "3rd game in 4 nights" are just lame excuses for losing teams. I'm sorry; 35-40 minutes of work is not enough to wear out any athlete so much that he can't put in another 35-40 minutes of work 24 hrs later. Do you honestly think that teams won't fill this 35-40 minutes with practice on "off days"? If he was hurt in any of those games, it didn't slow him down enough to make a difference, as his mpg and offensive production was okay. Yes, Francis fouled out of a game that went into overtime against Vancouver with a paltry 36 minutes. Compare this to Bibby's marathon-like 39 minutes in the same game. He also fouled out against Utah once (not an OT game though) after playing a mere 35 minutes. Francis switches on D? I thought he liked to go under screens too slow to stop his man from getting a shot off most of the time. We were tanking !? I thought we just sucked due to multiple injuries and a system that didn't showcase our players strengths. I guess we stunk at tanking too considering the fact that we had the 7th worst record near the end of the season and somehow moved to 9th. The 7th place team, incidentally, did win the draft lottery. I was right! We did suck . . . at tanking If anyone here were making an argument based solely on stats, then your points, and many you didn't mention, would be valid. However, most of the people who say Steve's D leaves something to be desired are basing this on what we have seen. The stats only reinforce this. *Porky Pig voice* uh b-b-b-b-b-b- That's all folks! ------------------ [This message has been edited by Launch Pad (edited July 06, 2000).]
I had to post something, Francis isn't an all-nba defender but he isn't "non existent" as some of you say. First off he was a rookie, and thats not a minor point. Second, why are you looking at one-on-one stats? Someone like Nick Van Exel had huge numbers but alot of that comes from the Rockets defensive plan. Rudy doesnt mind giving up 30 points from one guy if the rest of the team is stopped. Francis has the physical ability to be a very strong defensive player. There was the same knock on Kobe until he had that game against iverson. How about other point guards. Mookie Blaylock, Gary Payton, and Jason Kidd are all recognized as top of their position defenders. I do believe Francis "torched" them all for some pretty huge numbers. Are they not strong defenders? Kidd look simply baffled against Francis and Payton gave up 30 to Steve I think every game. Payton is unquestionably a tremendous defender but id he known for shutting down the opponent? Hell no, with the new rules and the way offense is run, a player like a Francis, Marbury, Payton, Iverson, etc. is almost impossible to stop. But Gary Payton plays strong team defensive and is so quick that he disrupts the flow of the opponents offense. Thats what a strong defensive player does. Shandon Anderson as most of us agree is the best defensive player on the Rockets, but he didnt shut down the opponent every night, he played hard and he helped out his teammates, which made him a strong defensive player. Scottie Pippen is a perennial all defensive first teammer yet his one-on-one defensive, as displayed first hand here in Houston, is fairly weak. Pippen's strength is that he is all over the court helping out teammates and blocking passing lanes. In this day in the NBA it is extremely difficult to judge a defender based on one-on-one stats. I'm pretty sure Francis will add strong defense to his dominating offense. ------------------
Sure, now we're going to believe what we see? I suppose you think we could call a better game than Jake O'Donnell too. Anyway, my last point of contention should have revealed the underlying tone of the post. Steve's young, and when it came to playing the league's best, he did what most star rookies would do, try to put up numbers against them. Later, he may take pride in shutting them down. The obvious aspect to this whole argument is that you're comparing a rookie with all-star veterans. I'd be suprised if he didn't get torched. Or should we expect someone with his experience to show Gary Payton how it's done? Maybe he should teach Jason Kidd how to pass the ball. ------------------
