O.K...Lets make it simple.If you had a really good team and all you needed was a great point,who you thought would stay healthy, to win that title,who would you take?..right now I'd say it's Payton. As far as I'm concerned, Andre Miller is on his way to being a better version of Kidd. Gary is still the best IMO,for reasons already stated here and in the other thread. Steve is doing a great job of moving up the ladder quickly as far as POINT GUARDS,but I think he is going to be one of the top three PLAYERS in the game soon.This is a spot GP has enjoyed for years and though you might not be able to say that now......He still is the top point.I'm not sure if Stevie will be a pure 1 forever,but instead a hybrid superstar 1-2.Once he has a better grasp of the NBA game and personnel moves are decided.....happy trails ------------------ [This message has been edited by hardwood (edited January 29, 2001).]
top 5 point guards right now : 1.gary payton 2.jason kidd 3.steve francis 4.stephon marbury 5.nick van exel or steve nash top 5 point guards in three years: 1.steve francis 2.jason kidd 3.stephon marbury 4.baron davis 5.mike bibby or steve nash ------------------ http://www.democrats.com
OK HP. I'll tell you some of Steve's weaknesses since you think I dont think there is anything wrong with him. I agree he doesnt run the pick and roll as well as Cuttino. He doesnt get himself in great position to use the pick. Second, he often gets himself trapped on the sideline in tight games because he fails to see the double teamer coming. Third, he'll see Shandon or Mo coming off a backpick and often force the pass leading to a turnover. As for his turnovers, he has less than Jason Kidd and similar TO numbers to Stockton. He's not the same turnover prone point guard he was last year.He'll go two games with 0 and 1 turnover and then have like a 4 or 5 TO game which may make you think he turns the ball over more than he actually does.As for his low assist numbers, you should know more than anybody that the rockets offense doesnt put the point guard in position to get high assists totals. I got 2 more faults of Francis for ya to make you happy. One, he is often careless with the ball in crunchtime(Philly game), and second he hesitates sometimes ,after recieving the ball from Cuttino, to swing it around the horn. ------------------ [This message has been edited by tacoma park legend (edited January 29, 2001).] [This message has been edited by tacoma park legend (edited January 29, 2001).]
Also forgot he doesnt know when to run the break, and puts himself in situations that shouldnt be so tough and that he could make alot easier. ------------------
Gary Payton's defense is overrated. Don't get me wrong, his D is still good, but ever since he's had to shoulder much of the offensive burden his defense isn't as good as it was. Back when he had Detlef and Kemp he was able to concentrate more on defense, now he only concetrates when he wants to. Also, look at all the distractions Seattle has gone through this year most, if not all can be traced directly back to GP. Jason Kidd is probably the best passer in the game. His vision is incredible. But he isn't an offensive threat scoring-wise. He also seems to be developing a tendency to run things from down in the low post. Not much right now, but it irks me to see pgs posting up. Jason Kidd is a better point guard, Steve Francis is the better player. ------------------ The Rockets will be the NBA champions. Believe.
Yes, I agree. I was just throwing out a bullsh!t argument about his assists. Yes, this offensive system does not allow for huge assist numbers by Francis. You can see in another comment to verse that I said that. hey tacomah...thanks for playing the negative challenge. you're alright. a lot of people would not have given me the negatives. I really like Stevie. The offense is not really ready for him. I believe he is ahead of the rest of the team on maturation...other than the Mobley pnr. My deal is that I really, really enjoy the fastbreak and have been dying to see the Rockets run a quality one. Stevie was the man that would deliver. I know he ran the wing in college and needs for repetition now, so I should be more patient. I just get frustrated when he doesn't push it. That is my big fault with him. And yes, that is a heypocrasy of me for not showing more patience in him.
speaking of steve's negatives - and maybe you all can help me with this one - i have a question about his fast break difficulties. it seems as if there are too many times when steve either a)gets the board; or b)receives the outlet, and jogs/trots/skips up court. i wonder why he doesn't just press the damn turbo button! what i haven't taken the time to notice is whether it is a matter of him a) surveying the court too long; or b) waiting on his slow to run teammates has anyone been able to pin down where the problem area is? ------------------
For point guards, i would still take payton. Gary does as good a job of involving his team as Steve(Neither one of them is great at it), Both can shoot, and gary can probably shoot better. Steve might be a better rebounder. Payton is still the best in the leauge at driving the lane, he doesnt even have to put effort in it, he just walks it in and puts up a shot. I think that theyre about the same in leadership. 1.GP 2.Kidd 3.Francis 4.Brandon/Marbury ------------------ President of the Charles Barkley fan club...Oh he retired? When?
Glad we got that cleared up HP. Didnt want you thinking I liked the Rockets just because of one player.I think Francis just surveys the court and thinks there is not a possiblity for a fastbreak when there is one. Rudy should tell him to run every time, and if he cant find anything, just pull it out.Also, he doesnt drift towards the rebounder well enough to recieve the pass and get the fast break going alot of times. He should be going to the ball, not the rebounder going to him. ------------------
i was willing to be satisfied with a little mental stimulation from this thread. however, vj, i am so confused by that post. how do you conclude gary can "shoot better"? how do you conclude steve "MIGHT" be a better rebounder? how do you conclude they are the same in leadership? have you not heard the complaints from gary's teammates about his attitude? i don't understand.
tpl, thanks for the input. so we're talking about fundamentals. that can be changed by rudy (or a VCR, if the rockets had one). also, i agree that he should just go with it and pull out if there is no opportunity. then look for the 2ndary transition (which we actually are improving on).
What does everyone think about a Steve for Payton trade? I thikn houston would be better this year with THIS YEAR's payton, and Seattle would be better with Francis. I'm not saying anything, but what does everyone think of this? Only glitch is, we'd make it to the first round this year, then slowly make our way out. But Seattle would be contenders in a few years. So, would ya? Steve for Gary? provide an arguement.... ------------------
If you want to go strictly by stats Steve DOES shoot better. 442% to 450% This year steve is rebounding better also. But like you said why go on stats? Gary has Pat Ewing, Vin Baker, Patterson, Lewis, Mccoy. all of whom are very good rebounders. Steve has noone really. Mo, Shandon, and Cuttino are all pretty good rebounders. Cato, Hakeem, Collier, Rogers are also pretty good rebounders but they've been injured so steve goes and picks up a couple extra boards. And by leader, i meant ON the court. In terms of actions off the court gary is one of the worst, but on the court he is one of the best. Gary is also a better playmaker at this time. Steve probably will be the best point in the league in 5 years, but right now he is still behind Kidd and payton. ------------------ President of the Charles Barkley fan club...Oh he retired? When?
Now that's just silly. Even if we're all wrong, and Payton clearly IS the better player, it's not by a significant margin. The fact is that Payton and Francis aren't very far removed this season, so it makes NO sense to trade for an aging veteran over a budding superstar. Once Payton runs out of gas, then what? Francis is in the Finals with Seattle. No thanks... I'll take Francis over Payton any day. ------------------ "There are three kinds of lies: Lies, Damned Lies, and STATISTICS..." - Mark Twain -
I know THAT. But if u can do it this season, then reverse it, would you? Just for this season? ------------------
I'd much rather just watch Stevie grow & develop than watch Payton get sorrier. Besides, Stevie can fly & dribbles real fancy. My 2 cents. ------------------ PrEsident of The Danforth Langhford FAN CLUB... He IS our future All-Star Small Forward
Live, show me some examples of jason kidd being a good defender. last time i checked steve drops around 25 ppg against the "WB". as a matter of fact, when was the last time you saw WB shut anyone down? and for having the best all-around game...are you serious? gary payton? let's see... 1) suspect on the 3. how suspect? .315% for the year. shooting 44% from the field, but takes 400 more shots than anyone on the team. i've already given you "reason", now i'm giving you stats! 2. 8.5 assists per game why do i put this in my argument against gary? because that stat, combined with the 400+ shots more that he takes tells me that he DOMINATES the ball for seattle. for gary to be a more effective point guard, he needs to involve his teammates more. more than 8.5. more like 10.5. ruben patterson is shooting 50%. rashard lewis is shooting 48%. vin baker is shooting...well nevermind that...but you have to establish your big men damnit! steve involves his entire team. gary doesn't. steve can shoot. gary can't. steve is a superior rebounder. steve is a superior driver. steve is a superior leader.
If I had to find a PG it is: 1. Kidd 2. Payton 3. Franchise Kidd is the old school PG, he distributes first then looks for his shot. He rebounds as well as any other PG and he plays above average defense. Payton is a great defensie player but not nearly the offensive playmaker of Kidd. He gets a few of his points strictly from his defensive intensity. Steve is a ball of potential. He could become a great NBA player, but on the other hand until he proves he is willing to work on his D and to make his teammates better he is still a work in process. He is willing to pass the ball, and often passes too much, but his passes aren't Kidd like, where his teammates get the ball where they want it. However if the question is you are starting an expansion team today then the answer would be Stevie just because he is so young and can carry a team offensively better than the other two.
no one runs a better fastbreak than Kidd...effortless. Francis is spastic on the fastbreak. No one runs a better motion offense than Kidd...effortless. Francis is spastic. I use those two criteria when defining a PG. Kidd lets his teammates know exactly what he is going to do and when, so they can move in coordination with him. Francis is spastic. Francis has plenty of areas to improve for me to say he can get the team running and moving in unison. Right now, Francis is a better shooter and better scorer than either Payton or Kidd. Francis can break down the defense all by himself. Those are great skills...great!! But, we really don't need that type of offense from him. Cat does that equal to better than Francis. The team has trouble right now knowing what Francis is going to do. Often Francis doesn't even know. His pnr skills are highly questionable at this point. Don't get me defensive on me here....I'm not saying Francis doesn't have great potential. But verse doesn't want any potential. Right now there are several parts of offensive execution where Kidd is far superior. So, tally this up: Kidd = better fastbreaker Kidd = better floor general at getting his team to run coordinated offenses (which also makes everyone's passing more effective) Kidd = better at the pnr Stockton = better at the pnr Casselll = better at the pnr Van Exel = better at the pnr Stoudamire = better at the pnr Jackson = better at the pnr Iverson = better at the pnr Mobley = better at the pnr I swear, 50% of the time Francis blows off the pnr and goes baseline all by himself. He does not seem to like to take on the trapping D of it. If he can't beat the trap, he is an average pnr guard. Francis = superior shooter (much better) Francis = superior at one-on-one breakdowns Francis = ability to be better at pnr's this year (if he just uses his shooting and driving better) bottomline = imo, Kidd generates more offense because of his skills than Francis does, right now. [This message has been edited by heypartner (edited January 29, 2001).]
I'll take anyone who doesn't beat his wife or teammates. ------------------ "Knickerbocker Please!" visit www.swirve.com, coming January 20th, the top 10 films of 2000! http://www.geocities.com/clutch34_2000 for great Rocket insight by some of your fellow BBS posters!
