Most people here have wishful thinking about Steve Francis. He used to be a dribble, dribble, etc. type player. He had all the heart/skill in the world but very little bball IQ. I for one think he started to change his game as he lost his athleticism and was injured last season. All I hope for is a chance for him to redeem himself and help out team win a championship. Now that he's supposedly "healthy" we shall see...'cause I can only root for the guy.
Number one whoever said that Francis was not one of the Rocket's greatest players is fooling himself. I remember in his fourth season with the Rocks Murphy saying there have only been 4 players in history to average at least 18 points, 6 assist, and 5 boards in their first four seasons: Magic Johnson, Oscar Robertson, (someone else) and Francis. (I am paraphrasing and I think there may have been one other player as well. Point being Francis was an elite all around player.) Francis then gets traded to the Magic and averages 21.3 points, 7 assists, 5.8 boards, and 1.5 steals his first season. Then the injuries began and Steve has never been able to play more than 46 games in a season since. If Francis never would have been traded and could have kept himself close to his averages of his first 6 seasons, he would have to to go down as the Rocket's second best player ever. In fact you could argue he is the Rocket's second best player ever now. Pippen, Barkley, Drexler, Sampson, Hayes, and T-mac all played equal or less years for the Rockets then Francis and arguably Francis had equal or better stats. That only leaves Murphy, Malone and Rudy T. Never thought of this before but you could make a strong argument that Yao is the Rocket's second best player ever. Depends on what you are using as your qualifications. Give Francis his due he was a great great player. Stop with the hate it's pathetic. That being said. No one is expecting or even wanting Steve to avg 20, 5, and 5. There's not enough basketballs to go around. I would be satisfied with Steve concentrating on hitting the open shot, rebounding (he was always a great rebounding guard), and distributing. if he could average 10, 5, and 5. I would be ecstatic. And of course a Francis, T-mac, Artest, Scola, Yao starting lineup would be euphoric. Can Steve contribute without being the playmaker with the ball in his hands? At this point in his career he's going to have to. He could have been one of the all time greats and I know that has to eat at him. If he does not want to fade away into obscurity then he will have to learn. A contributor to a couple of championships would help cement his legacy. He was too great of a player to be given this much disrespect.
Define "greatest." Top 5? Top 10? Top 20? Yes, he put up good numbers on a very mediocre team. That doesn't elevate him to being a Rocket "great" in my mind.
PhillyRocket said: [/QUOTE]Number one whoever said that Francis was not one of the Rocket's greatest players is fooling himself. I remember in his fourth season with the Rocks Murphy saying there have only been 4 players in history to average at least 18 points, 6 assist, and 5 boards in their first four seasons: Magic Johnson, Oscar Robertson, (someone else) and Francis. (I am paraphrasing and I think there may have been one other player as well. Point being Francis was an elite all around player.) Francis then gets traded to the Magic and averages 21.3 points, 7 assists, 5.8 boards, and 1.5 steals his first season. Then the injuries began and Steve has never been able to play more than 46 games in a season since. If Francis never would have been traded and could have kept himself close to his averages of his first 6 seasons, he would have to to go down as the Rocket's second best player ever. In fact you could argue he is the Rocket's second best player ever now. Pippen, Barkley, Drexler, Sampson, Hayes, and T-mac all played equal or less years for the Rockets then Francis and arguably Francis had equal or better stats. That only leaves Murphy, Malone and Rudy T. Never thought of this before but you could make a strong argument that Yao is the Rocket's second best player ever. Depends on what you are using as your qualifications. Give Francis his due he was a great great player. Stop with the hate it's pathetic. I would be satisfied with Steve concentrating on hitting the open shot, rebounding (he was always a great rebounding guard), and distributing. if he could average 10, 5, and 5. I would be ecstatic. And of course a Francis, T-mac, Artest, Scola, Yao starting lineup would be euphoric.
Statistically Steve Francis was a top 10 Houston player and brought it every night. However, his bball IQ was and isn't on the top of anyone's list. Check his assist to turnover ratio running the point. Also, remember the significant number of compliants we leveled in the 4th Qtr when Steve and Cuttino would freeze Yao out and do something stupid. Bottom line, I trust his one on one skills but not his decision making.
Wow. Did you just say that if Francis had stayed here 6 years with similar results to his other Rockets years, he would have been the second best Rocket in team history? I'm sorry man, but I'm going to have to accuse you hypotimeitis, a common disorder in human beings that can be regularly attributed to a lack of years spent alive. Common symptoms are stubbornness, an inability to properly articulate thoughts, and a lack of perspective. What can I say, I suffer from it too, I'm 23. That's 17 years away from being a man. But still I must admit that in my ignorance--I started watching the Rockets in '93--I would have to put a few Rockets ahead of Francis. And I'm sorry, I just can't give him credit for the years he "could have had" as a Rocket if not for that trade. By that logic Sam Cassell and Horry should be all-timers because of their body of work they might have had if they had not been traded away. And hell they have two championships apiece compared to zero for Steve. When it comes time to compare Calvin Murphy, Moses Malone, Clyde the Glyde, Rudy T, heck, T-Mac and Yao to Francis, going by PPG RPG and APG isn't gonna cut it. What about this one? WPS (WINS PER SEASON). The NBA seems to care about that stat; they seed the playoff teams according to it. You can lament Steve's supporting cast all you want, but the fact of the matter is that Steve's body of work as a Rocket is tantamount to Zach Randolph's with Portland, or Jamal Mashburn's with Dallas, or . The KG and Chris Webber cases are different because they achieved success as a large part of their team at other points in their career. Francis has NEVER been the key cog of a winner (and don't bring up that 2003 team, please). In recent years the statisticians have devised many numbers to demonstrate a player's contribution to his team's winning or losing ways, but to me one statement is all you need to sum up Steve Francis' time as the leader of this franchise. We sucked when he was here. We sucked bad. And when he left, we stopped sucking. I'm not a Steve hater. I know we will be a better team if he can contribute to our PG play this year. But to put him among the all-time Rockets greats is insulting to the true greats.
Yeah, I remember, we traded for Tmac and the rings just kept coming. Last time I checked, the only thing that matters is the ring, you can go 82-0 in the season and lose in the first round and by the NBA's standards done nothing.
So . . .Robert Horry . . .is probably pretty high on the WINS per season list QUESTION: Why not 'bring up that 2003 team'? How about the quality of teammates? Can I bring that up? amazing folx will b*tch that someone or other is great but . . they were injured they had to do it all they didn't have quality teammates they were blah blah blah but when it comes to Steve Francis .. none of that seems to matter becuase people hate him . .and will continue to hate him no matter what Unless I'm mistaken . . with the exception of the migraine season the Rockets were a consistant OVER 500 Team. With a Starting Line up containing WALT WILLIAMS and KELVIN CATO Rocket River
Yes he is. When he was in his prime he was an underrated player. As he got old he became overrated because he wouldn't show up in the regular season. Quality of teammates is always an issue, but anyone who watched Steve all those years in Houston knew he wasn't helping the cause. Iso basketball is not winning basketball. Examples of men on an island were like I previously mentioned, KG in Minny, Webber in GS and Washington, and add T-Mac in Orlando to that. T-Mac was 1-on-5 almost in that Detroit series. And his stats were still better than Steve's even when his team was sucking equally. Any way you cut it T-Mac ends up ahead of Francis. Which isn't to say I've cut the current regime any slack for its playoff woes. But you have to sympathize when a good team loses to dirtiness (Jerry Sloan twice and refs conspiring against us in the Mavs series, like Donaghy said). You take that 2003 team and basically swap T-Mac and Juwan for Francis Cato and Mobley, and we went from 45 wins to 51, from an easy-out playoff team to a competitive 5th seed that got jobbed in 7 games.
I thought u said Stats didn't matter. . but here you choose to goto the stats? Which is it .. . make up your mind cause seems convient to use them when you wanna prop up YOUR GUY KG in minny had his best season . .er. . got out the 1st round With SAM and SpreeWell He had teams that had MARBURY [an ass but a great player] and WALLY Webber - wasn't a IN HIS PRIME JUWAN on that team? T-Mac had Hill part of the time as oppose to the LAKERS getting just about every call against an Upstart Rocket Team . . .a rocket team that still managed to NOT GET BLOW OUT BY 40 WHILE THE STAR IS GIGGLING ON THE SIDE LINES Is that the Game 7 we lost by 40? Who Jobbed us? We won 6 more games and lost to an inferior Playoff team [Dallas 2004 is inferior to the lakers 2003] The 1st 4 games of that laker series was competitive You make a big ole excuse pile for the losses to Dallas and Utah yet want to dismiss the series against the Lakers A Laker team that went to the Finals A Laker team with 4 hall of famers A Laker team that would wipe the flloor against that Dallas Team and both those Utah teams A Laker team with SHAQ and Kobe entering there prime . . . A Rocket Team with a YOUNG inexperienced YAO A Rocket team with a New Coach [1st year] New System A Rocket Team with the following major contributors: MAURICE TAYLOR ERIC 'disappearing shot' PIATKOWSKI KELVIN CATO CLARENCE WEATHERSPOON MOOCHIE NORRIS MARK JACKSON CHARLES OAKLEY <-- Top Flight Talents there Please point out the lies to me? Tell me where I am wrong? Rocket River
You do realize that Rudy T favored ISOs right? He felt is was their best option. It wasn't just Steve, but Cuttino and even Moochie were given iso plays also. I wouldn't put all the blame on him. He was their best player. As their main PG, he had to try to score and run the team at the same time. This time around, there isn't that pressure for him to carry the entire team on his shoulders.
LOL Rocket River. I can't begin to comprehend how much current Rockets roster has changed. Our cast right now is so much superior to those old days.
